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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 21, 2013 10:40:55 GMT -5
See this Steve Elkington video on the "clubshaft twirl".
I think that his explanation is incomprehensible. Does any forum member believe in the need for any clubshaft twirling phenomenon - as described by SE?
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 21, 2013 13:04:00 GMT -5
Here is a BM-forum thread started by Keefer on the "clubshaft twirl" maneuver. www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/18100-professional-shallowing-plane-move-transition-twirl.htmlOriginally, he posted those SE's videos that I posted in my original post, but he withdrew them when a BM groupie protested about posting golf instructional material from other golf instructors in the BM forum. He then reworded his original post. Keefer believes that the "clubshaft twirl" maneuver is designed to shallow-out the clubshaft in the early downswing and that it involves left forearm pronation. I think that there is a much simpler way to understand the biomechanics of the "clubshaft twirl" action if one simply thinks of shallowing an intact LAFW between P4 and P5. If one shallows the intact LAFW between P4 and P5 so that the LAFW comes down a shallower plane during the power package slotting phase of the early downswing, then one must simultaneously move the RFFW in space in such a way that the right palm always remains parallel to the undersurface of the inclined plane. If the inclined plane becomes shallower, then it will take more external rotation of the right humerus and more right forearm supination during the pitch elbow motion that constitutes the power package slotting motion of the RFFW - in order to keep the right palm continuously parallel to the undersurface of the inclined plane. It is those superadded biomechanical motions of the right arm/forearm that consitutute the underlying biomechanics of the "clubshaft twirling" action and there is no significant change in the degree of right wrist dorsiflexion - as SE implies in his "artificially-executed" right wrist twirling action maneuver. Jeff.
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Post by mchepp on Feb 21, 2013 20:12:47 GMT -5
I purchased the SE video and I get the exact opposite feeling, in that he wants the twirl to steepen the shaft not shallow it. Plus the action opens the clubface. When watching the video I mostly disregarded the twirl portion because I am not crazy about steepening the shaft or opening the face on the downswing. I prefer to the opposite.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 22, 2013 10:15:45 GMT -5
Keffer wrote the following in the BM forum thread-: "The "Twirl" is nothing more that a clockwise rotation of the club to get it more on plane. Twistaway is for face angle and the Twirl is for plane. Simple as that. If you have open face angle issues maybe the twirl isn't for you.
You're getting caught up in semantics. The issue is how do you achieve the side arm throwing action to shallow the plane. I mentioned Kevin Shields who feels like the right hand and arm move under as he shifts his weight. In order for the right hand and arm to move under they would have to move clockwise to get the side arm throwing action.
Again, Twistaway is for golfers who have an open face problem at impact. The Twirl (or call it whatever you want) helps golfers get the club back on plane.
I'm using Shields because he's on record saying what he feels. He doesn't say he just drops his right hand and arm to shallow back on plane. He says he "curls" his right hand and arm under. To curl his right hand and arm is to rotate them and if he's going under he's rotating clockwise.
I know branding is very important here. So, instead of calling it the "twirl" how about we call it the "curl"?
Brian Manzella adocates this side arm throwing / skipping a stone across a pond feel. Just as Twistaway is a way to describe a counter rotation move, maybe the side arm throw / skipping a stone across a pond move would be accepted by the Manzella disciples if it had a different name. I suggest the curl.
The Curl may be more palatable. Harvey Penick called the magic move "to start your downswing, let your weight shift to your left foot while bringing your right elbow back down to your body."
I would suggest bringing you right elbow back down to your side would help get the club back on plane also. If you do that motion with your right arm only you'll see the club naturally shallows out because it moves it more on plane. If you let it your right hand has a clockwise rotation when you bring it back down to your side.
Do it with a club in your right hand only and you'll see what I'm talking about. The right hand and arm (if you let them ) want to curl under as you bring your elbow back to your side and the shaft shallows out. However, for many golfers this move is elusive and that's where some may benefit from actually curling the right hand and arm under to get the shaft back on plane (i.e. the twirl or curl)."
I think that Keefer has a limited understanding of the biomechanics of clubshaft shallowing.
He states that a twistaway maneuver is a counterclockwise rotation of the club while a "twirl" is a clockwise rotation of the club. However, in a twistaway maneuver the club is rotated counterclockwise with respect to its longitudinal axis, and that will close the clubface relative to the clubhead arc. However, when a golfer shallows the clubshaft plane between P4 and P5.5, the shallowing move doesn't alter the clubface angle relative to the clubhead arc - and that's why the term "twirl" or "curl" is a poor term to use to describe the clubshaft shallowing action. The clubshaft only rotates clockwise - if one imagines an imaginary circle that is perpendicular to the ball-target line, and one can imagine the clubshaft crossing the diameter of that circle at an angle, and one can then imagine the crossing-angle changing when the clubshaft shallows (eg. one can imagine the clubhead moving from 1 o'clock to 2 o'clock on the circumference of that imaginary circle - when viewed from upline). During that clubshaft shallowing motion, the clubshaft is not being twirled/curled around its longitudinal axis. Also, the right palm isn't "curling", and it is simply altering its angle relative to the ground secondary to the pitch elbow motion.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 22, 2013 22:44:06 GMT -5
This is what BM posted in that BM-forum thread-: " To be honest, I have not read this thread much at all.
In the transition, the left arm usually will continue rotate open. " More BM BS! Why should any rational golfer believe that the clubface will rotate more open during the transition between the backswing and downswing - if the LAFW is intact and "on-plane" at the end-backswing position? Here is a swing video of Keegan Bradley's swing Here is Keegan Bradley's P4 to P7 swing action. Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Feb 23, 2013 13:50:45 GMT -5
This is what BM posted in that BM-forum thread-: " To be honest, I have not read this thread much at all.
In the transition, the left arm usually will continue rotate open. " More BM BS! Why should any rational golfer believe that the clubface will rotate more open during the transition between the backswing and downswing - if the LAFW is intact and "on-plane" at the end-backswing position?Here is a nice compilation that Kelvin put together showing Hogan's clubface closing during transition; guess Bman missed it!:
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Post by tomdavis76 on Feb 23, 2013 13:52:41 GMT -5
I purchased the SE video and I get the exact opposite feeling, in that he wants the twirl to steepen the shaft not shallow it. Plus the action opens the clubface. When watching the video I mostly disregarded the twirl portion because I am not crazy about steepening the shaft or opening the face on the downswing. I prefer to the opposite. Seems to me all the "twirl" does is open the face, setting up a very nice timing-dependent release.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 23, 2013 20:14:17 GMT -5
Jeffy,
If you believe that Hogan closed the clubface (relative to the clubhead arc and not relative to the ground) at the transition, how did he do it from a biomechanical perspective?
Also, why should a "clubface twirl" action open the clubface to the clubhead arc?
Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Feb 23, 2013 23:13:53 GMT -5
Jeffy, If you believe that Hogan closed the clubface (relative to the clubhead arc and not relative to the ground) at the transition, how did he do it from a biomechanical perspective?Isn't that in the video? Anyway, you should know: there aren't many choices! Because the "twirl" is simply right arm supination.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 24, 2013 0:52:00 GMT -5
Jeffy,
I asked you how Hogan could close the clubface to his clubhead arc in the transition. If you actually know the answer then you should be able to answer the question.
Also, I don't understand how right forerarm supination can open the clubface to the clubhead arc when the right palm is parallel to the undersurface of the inclined plane at the time of the transition. Can you please explain the biomechanics/mechanics?
Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Feb 24, 2013 10:31:45 GMT -5
Well, if you REALLY want to know, we'll have to play 20 questions then!!! BTW, it's the same answer to both!
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Post by tomdavis76 on Feb 24, 2013 19:00:18 GMT -5
Jeffy, If you believe that Hogan closed the clubface (relative to the clubhead arc and not relative to the ground) at the transition, how did he do it from a biomechanical perspective?Also, why should a "clubface twirl" action open the clubface to the clubhead arc? Jeff. I watched the video again and, I was right, it's in there!!! Why waste my time with questions that have already been answered???
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 24, 2013 19:10:14 GMT -5
When Jeffy answers in that jesting manner (reply #10), then I know that he has nothing useful to say re: golf swing biomechanics/mechanics. His bold claim in reply #11 (based on re-viewing that Hogan video) is wrong! I think that KM/Jeffy are wrong to post a video of Hogan's swing and draw lines along the clubface and then claim that any angular changes of those lines in a more horizontal direction (relative to the horizon/ground) means that the clubface is becoming more closed to the clubhead arc. To demonstrate that "fact" one would have to show that the clubface is closing relative to the back of the left lower forearm, and that biomechanically requires an arching (palmar flexing) left wrist. KM/Jeffy cannot rationally use the reference of the horizon (ground), rather than the reference of the back of the lower left forearm, as a reference point - because if the clubface becomes more horizontal to the horizon (ground) it could simply be due to a shallowing of the clubshaft angle (shallowing of the intact LAFW). Consider Jim Furyk's transition. A golfer, who doesn't understand golf swing mechanics/biomechanics, may think that his clubface is open at P4 - image 1 - because it is relatively vertical to the ground. However, it is actually slightly closed relative to the back of his left lower forearm, and it is only "open" to the horizon because the left arm angle is so steep. In his transition - images 2 & 3 - the clubface is becoming more "closed" (horizontal) relative to the ground, but that is simply due to the fact that he is shallowing his left arm angle. The clubface is not changing its angle relative to the back of Furyk's left lower forearm (and therefore the clubhead arc) - because he is maintaining a FLW and intact LAFW. Image 4 is at P5.5 - note that his clubface still has an unchanged angle relative to the back of his left lower forearm because he has maintained a FLW/intact LAFW. However, he has far more left forearm pronation and right forearm supination (compared to image 1) - and that is due to the shallowing clubshaft angle. In other words, right forearm supination between P4 and P5.5 changes the clubshaft angle without opening/closing the clubface relative to the clubhead arc. There is no clubshaft twirl/curl phenomenon happening in terms of the clubshaft rotating about its longitudinal axis - as some BM groupies and Keefer have implied. The right palm is constantly changing its angle (relative to the ground) during his clubshaft shallowing action - and biomechanically it does involve right forearm supination and left forearm pronation - and the right palm remains constantly parallel to the progressively shallowing inclined plane of a progressively shallowing clubshaft - but there is no right wrist twirling/curling phenomenon. Jeff.
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