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Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 14, 2013 23:33:20 GMT -5
Konrad, I believe that there are two acceptable downswing pelvic motion techniques used by professional golfers - i) a rotary technique and ii) a shift-rotary technique. If a golfer uses the rotary technique, then it is equivalent to rotating-in-a barrel. Note that the bottom left image shows dual-ER - when a golfer is in the sit-down/hip-squaring phase of the downswing, which usually happens at about P5. Jamie Sadlowski manifests that rotary pattern of pelvic motion. Note that he has dual-ER in image 4 (when his pelvis is square to the ball-target line). However, many skilled golfers do not manifest this pelvic motion pattern. Here are capture images of Mike McNary's downswing action. Note that his right thigh is not in ER in image 2 - and that is because he has lot of left-lateral pelvic swaying motion in his early downswing that gets his head to move ahead of the ball. I think that his downswing action is great, and I don't believe (like KM/Jeffy) that all skilled golfers have to use a rotary pelvic motion (like Jamie Sadlowski). Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 14, 2013 23:59:58 GMT -5
KM has sympathy for Gracovetsky's spine-engine theory that believes that forces generated by pelvic motion is transmitted to the upper torso via back fascia. The problem is that KM has presented no scientific evidence to show that it is possible. I have dissected a number of cadavers when I was a medical student and I think that the fascial layer overlying the back musculature is thin and functionally-inconsequential. I am not surprised that MD cannot find scientific evidence supporting the spine engine theory when reviewing the scientific literature.
See this MD commentary-: "Below is a link to an article that lays out the theoretical pathways for through which we might find evidence for the possibility of contraction generated. It was published in 2005, tellingly in Medical Hypotheses. Hopefully you can find it here:
fasciaresearch.de/Schleip2005FascialContractility.pdf
The ensuing search for articles citing that theoretical article revealed about 20 articles, and it seems one of those articles that have suggested any evidence for one of those pathways. That article is from the same authors, and the summary says that there does seem to be evidence that the fascia might be able to contract long term to help postural support.
stanleyrosenberg.com/artikelmappe/Focus_on_Fascia/pdf/wcb2006.pdf
So it seems that one primary author has been publishing theoretical pathways for fascia contraction and has found at least limited evidence that fascia might help in low force requirement tasks like standing.
At this time, it is very difficult to gather how all of the proposed evidence since 1940's has been missed. I'm not comfortable trying to discuss a topic like this third hand, so I will try to work with Lloyd to see if Dr. Gacovetsky and I can speak more directly. I will say that FaceBook and forums such as this can be very good for general and social discussion, but they can also be quite problematic. I'd certainly agree that new ideas (at least in the scientific realm) should be explored and then submitted to the peer review process before being stated as fact."
That's the problem with KM/Jeffy - they have no background knowledge of how to review the scientific literature in a neutral manner. Instead, they simply favor certain theories that they find attractive - without ascertaining the likely accuracy of those theories. That's why KM can believe that straightening the left arm causes left wrist dorsiflexion via fascial connections - even though there is no scietific support for that BS-belief!
Jeff.
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Post by chipitin on Sept 15, 2013 0:38:06 GMT -5
It's like the Inquisition. With Kelvin acting as the head inquisitor and Jeff as his relief inquisitor because of the time difference Kelvin the H.I. needs some snooze time between questioning the accused aka Mike Duffy so Jeffy the R.I. then fills in with another bout of questioning.
What a debacle! Mike Duffy has shown nothing but class in the face of this farce. Kelvin and Jeff Martin fit the term Pseudo Scientists to a tee.
They should investigate each other not Mike Duffy if they are looking for real Pseudo Scientists and their Pseudo Science.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 15, 2013 7:10:42 GMT -5
Konrad, Here are nice images of Jamie Sadlowski's early downswing - from P4 to P5. Note that his right thigh does rotate clockwise in his backswing, but he is in IR at the P4 position (image 1) because his pelvis rotates more clockwise than his right thigh. Note that his right thigh rotates counterclockwise in his early downswing, but it is in ER at P5 (image 5) because his pelvis rotates counterclockwise more than the right thigh. There is another reason why you should understand why dual-ER has to happen at P5 (when the pelvis is square to the ball-target line) in golfers who use a rotary pelvic motion where the pelvis remains centered between the feet during the early downswing action - and that is the fact that the distance between the knees is greater than the width of the pelvis. It is biomechanically natural for the right femur to be in ER when it is in that abducted condition (as it would be if one were a jockey riding a horse). Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 18, 2013 7:50:40 GMT -5
AAA wrote in the Jeffy forum thread.
"Mike, I hesitate to stick my head up into the line of fire, but my point was more or less that you need to know what's important in an elite golf swing to know what to measure, or to take Kelvin's point, how to measure it or even how to describe it. I realize there is a circularity in the argument, viz. you need to measure many things and analyze them to determine what is crucial. Kelvin has done what most of us consider a brilliant job of doing that qualitatively. You would have to be a dedicated student of the game to fully appreciate the magnitude of what he has accomplished. His micromove analysis has made most traditional golf instruction look like astrology in terms of theoretical foundation. "
AAA harbors a partisan opinion, and he makes the common mistake of thinking that his personal opinion is equivalent to an objective fact.
Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Oct 7, 2013 21:31:59 GMT -5
Sad
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Post by tomdavis76 on Oct 7, 2013 23:40:59 GMT -5
Konrad, I believe that there are two acceptable downswing pelvic motion techniques used by professional golfers - i) a rotary technique and ii) a shift-rotary technique. If a golfer uses the rotary technique, then it is equivalent to rotating-in-a barrel. Note that the bottom left image shows dual-ER - when a golfer is in the sit-down/hip-squaring phase of the downswing, which usually happens at about P5. Jamie Sadlowski manifests that rotary pattern of pelvic motion. Note that he has dual-ER in image 4 (when his pelvis is square to the ball-target line). However, many skilled golfers do not manifest this pelvic motion pattern. Here are capture images of Mike McNary's downswing action. Note that his right thigh is not in ER in image 2 - and that is because he has lot of left-lateral pelvic swaying motion in his early downswing that gets his head to move ahead of the ball. I think that his downswing action is great, and I don't believe (like KM/Jeffy) that all skilled golfers have to use a rotary pelvic motion (like Jamie Sadlowski). Jeff. Neither Kel nor I have ever said that "all skilled golfers" have to do anything, let alone swing like Jamie. Just another pathetic strawman.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Oct 7, 2013 23:43:12 GMT -5
KM has sympathy for Gracovetsky's spine-engine theory that believes that forces generated by pelvic motion is transmitted to the upper torso via back fascia. The problem is that KM has presented no scientific evidence to show that it is possible. I have dissected a number of cadavers when I was a medical student and I think that the fascial layer overlying the back musculature is thin and functionally-inconsequential. I am not surprised that MD cannot find scientific evidence supporting the spine engine theory when reviewing the scientific literature. See this MD commentary-: " Below is a link to an article that lays out the theoretical pathways for through which we might find evidence for the possibility of contraction generated. It was published in 2005, tellingly in Medical Hypotheses. Hopefully you can find it here:
fasciaresearch.de/Schleip2005FascialContractility.pdf
The ensuing search for articles citing that theoretical article revealed about 20 articles, and it seems one of those articles that have suggested any evidence for one of those pathways. That article is from the same authors, and the summary says that there does seem to be evidence that the fascia might be able to contract long term to help postural support.
stanleyrosenberg.com/artikelmappe/Focus_on_Fascia/pdf/wcb2006.pdf
So it seems that one primary author has been publishing theoretical pathways for fascia contraction and has found at least limited evidence that fascia might help in low force requirement tasks like standing.
At this time, it is very difficult to gather how all of the proposed evidence since 1940's has been missed. I'm not comfortable trying to discuss a topic like this third hand, so I will try to work with Lloyd to see if Dr. Gacovetsky and I can speak more directly. I will say that FaceBook and forums such as this can be very good for general and social discussion, but they can also be quite problematic. I'd certainly agree that new ideas (at least in the scientific realm) should be explored and then submitted to the peer review process before being stated as fact." That's the problem with KM/Jeffy - they have no background knowledge of how to review the scientific literature in a neutral manner. Instead, they simply favor certain theories that they find attractive - without ascertaining the likely accuracy of those theories. That's why KM can believe that straightening the left arm causes left wrist dorsiflexion via fascial connections - even though there is no scietific support for that BS-belief![/size] Jeff. [/quote] Have you read the book "Anatomy Trains"? Of course, not...
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 7, 2013 23:52:03 GMT -5
Jeffy wrote-: "Have you read the book "Anatomy Trains"? Of course, not...".
I haven't read that book, but I have read many standard textbooks of human anatomy and I have also dissected a number of cadavers. I also achieved the highest score in human anatomy in my medical school class of 200 students (but that's just brash bragging!).
Jeff.
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Post by konrad on Oct 8, 2013 13:42:19 GMT -5
Sorry Jeff, I do not agree with your analysis of JS right thigh being externally rotated at P5. Take another look at the difference between his right knee and thigh position in the two photos below (P4 left photo & P5 right photo). No doubt which direction the right knee and thigh are moving. The right side pelvis in that right photo (P5) has not rotated more counter-clockwise than the thigh from P4. Just toggle the video between the two positions in the photos below and you will see how the thigh keeps pace with the right side pelvis. Remember, the right thigh was internally rotated at P4, no way does the right side pelvis move counter-clockwise fast enough to surpass the movement of the right thigh. imageshack.us/a/img268/710/7c6.png [/img]
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 8, 2013 16:23:35 GMT -5
Konrad,
It is not the right pelvis that is moving counterclockwise very fast between P4 and P5 - it is the left pelvis. If you cannot perceive that the right thigh is externally rotated relative to his pelvis at P5 (image 2) when the pelvis is square to the ball-target line - then we perceive reality very differently. I think that both of his thighs look externally rotated in image 2 to roughly the same degree - both knee caps (patellae) face slightly outwards (away from the midline) and the distance between the knees is greater than the distance between the two hip joints.
Try an experiment - stand erect with your legs apart so that the knees are further apart than the distance between your hip joints. Make sure that your kneecaps face directly forward - which means that your thighs are not externally rotated. Now, start to squat by bending your knees - your thighs should automatically become externally rotated during the squatting maneuver. Sadlowski is in a slightly squatted-down position at P5 when his knees are slightly flexed.
Jeff.
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Post by konrad on Oct 8, 2013 17:48:07 GMT -5
we perceive reality very differently. I agree with this 100% I think that both of his thighs look externally rotated in image 2 to roughly the same degree That's your problem, you're being fooled by the "LOOK" of a still photo and not properly comprehending the actual movements. JS's right knee is NOT facing outwards, it is definitely facing inwards and more importantly, it is moving in the same direction as the left knee and pelvis (counter-clockwise). In your experiment, if the knees move in opposite directions and the weight remains equal on each foot then the thighs will become externally rotated, JS is not doing that from P4 to P5.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 8, 2013 21:11:50 GMT -5
Konrad, You wrote-: "J S's right knee is NOT facing outwards, it is definitely facing inwards" I disagree! I think that his right knee is still facing slightly outwards (away from the target) at P5 - but far less than at P4. However, his pelvis is square at P5, which means that his right thigh is minimally externally rotated relative to his pelvis. The same situation applies to this diagram. Jeff.
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Post by konrad on Oct 8, 2013 22:40:17 GMT -5
I disagree! I think that his right knee is still facing slightly outwards (away from the target) at P5 You're absolutely wrong about JS. Play the video, when he gets the club parallel to the ground near the top of his back swing his right leg is almost perfectly straight, as the club continues beyond parallel to his P4 position his right foot heel starts to lift and the knee comes forward and flexes, so at his P4 position his knee has already moved forward and as his hands start to move downward the right knee immediately starts to work inward as the right heel lifts even more. By P5 his right knee is definitely moving inwards and the thigh is rotating inward also. Plain as day. Toggle the video and you will see what I'm saying is correct.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 9, 2013 0:08:20 GMT -5
Konrad, I don't dispute any of your claims in your last post. It is obvious that JS is rotating his right thigh counterclockwise between P4 and P5. However, at P5 his pelvis is square due to his "left hip clearing action" motion, but his right thigh is still minimally externally rotated relative to his pelvis. I also stand by this image that I created. Sam Snead's right thigh also rotates counterclockwise between P4 and P5, but at P5 his thighs are both minimally externally rotated relative to his square pelvis. I think that JS looks exactly like Sam Snead in terms of their "sit down" look appearance at P5 and I believe that they both manifest dual-ER at P5. Jeff.
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