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Post by konrad on Oct 9, 2013 1:06:53 GMT -5
Oh, so we're down to "minimally externally rotated." Well, you're inching closer to reality. Maybe some day you'll finally get there. Good luck with that. Meantime, I'll be over here in the real world.
Have fun with those blue, red, green and grey lines creating make-believe dual ER. I'll stand by the actuality of what JS is doing in that video and also that Snead's right knee and thigh are not externally rotated in image 4. Pipe dream to say it is. Just compare his externally rotated left leg with his right leg. Two completely different positions. Left leg knee is moving and pointing outward and is over his foot with a perpendicular lower leg and his right knee is moving and pointing inward and is inside his foot with an angled lower leg. How can both legs be externally rotated if they are in two completely different positions?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 9, 2013 8:07:13 GMT -5
The entire tone of your post reflects your rigidly one-sided thinking and your firm belief that you are "right".
It is obvious to me that there is a very small difference in the two legs because the left leg is moving away from the center while the right leg is moving towards the center, but I still believe that the two thighs are in external rotation (relative to the square pelvis) because the anterior surface of both thighs are oriented slightly to the outside of a line drawn perpendicular to the ball-target line and pelvis.
You are free to perceive reality differently, which wouldn't surprise me considering the fact that you firmly believe that Kellie Oride's left wrist is bent between P7.5 and P9 even though you cannot even see the back of her left wrist and even though you have not countered the 4 points that I made with respect to her P9 position.
Jeff.
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Post by konrad on Oct 9, 2013 11:52:44 GMT -5
Jeff,
You seem to misunderstand my tone. It is partially with a sense of humor, tongue in cheek tone because you're always in full "one-up" mode trying to prove everyone else wrong.
My post describes how you are recanting from your initial strong stance on the issue to a less stringent conclusion. You do this often when clear evidence is presented that contradicts what you said from the outset. My observations of the JS video and SS photo are valid, so you soften your stance on dual ER by using words like "minimally" and "slightly". Then, your only real evidence of dual ER is a drawing of lines you created and an artists rendering of a player swinging in a barrel.
You keep telling me I am free to perceive reality differently, but, I think what you seem to overlook is, I already know that and it is amusing to me that you are compelled to tell me and everyone else that over and over and over again. I don't think of you as the bad guy or someone I have to "one-up", you're an amateur enthusiast with a great passion for studying golf swing biomechanics/mechanics and I'm good with that no matter how much I may disagree with what you are saying.
Oride is extending her lead wrist throughout the follow-through no doubt. I don't really need to see another video from a different angle to prove that to be true, but, I get the feeling you do. My only "friendly" advice to you would be to spend less time scrutinizing still photos and more time diagnosing the movements in real time and in their entirety and how they specifically relate to a particular ball flight. That said, and in a tone you readily express, you are free to do and say whatever you want.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 9, 2013 17:20:52 GMT -5
Konrad,
You stated-: "My observations of the JS video and SS photo are valid, so you soften your stance on dual ER by using words like "minimally" and "slightly".
You seemingly believe that I softened my stance regarding the degree of ER present at P5 because of your critical comments. It is obviously not true that I have altered my stance - because my original diagram shows only minimal/slight ER of both thighs at the P5 position.
You also wrote-: "Oride is extending her lead wrist throughout the follow-through no doubt. I don't really need to see another video from a different angle to prove that to be true, but, I get the feeling you do.".
I am as equally convinced as you in our respective (but contrary) personal opinions - but I am convinced that KO has a FLW, and not a bent left wrist. You have zero evidence to support your "feeling" that I am more doubtful about my personal opinion than you are with respect to your personal opinion.
Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Oct 9, 2013 21:55:20 GMT -5
I disagree! I think that his right knee is still facing slightly outwards (away from the target) at P5 You're absolutely wrong about JS. Play the video, when he gets the club parallel to the ground near the top of his back swing his right leg is almost perfectly straight, as the club continues beyond parallel to his P4 position his right foot heel starts to lift and the knee comes forward and flexes, so at his P4 position his knee has already moved forward and as his hands start to move downward the right knee immediately starts to work inward as the right heel lifts even more. By P5 his right knee is definitely moving inwards and the thigh is rotating inward also. Plain as day. Toggle the video and you will see what I'm saying is correct. Actually, you are the one that is completely wrong. Plain as day, Jamie's right heel lifts and the right knee moves towards the target line, not inward towards the ball. Jamie is in dual ER at hips square just as Snead, Tiger in his prime, young Jack, Palmer and Hogan, the top five winners on the PGA tour. Surprised you are on the wrong side of this one.
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Post by konrad on Oct 9, 2013 22:26:28 GMT -5
Plain as day, Jamie's right heel lifts and the right knee moves towards the target line, not inward towards the ball. Jeffy, As Jamie's club is still moving backwards in that video he starts to lift the right heel and bend the knee forward, once he changes direction and reaches P4.5 the heel is well off the ground and the knee has completed it's forward movement, from that point the knee moves inward and buy the time he gets to P5 the knee and thigh are both moving inward. I don't call that movement external rotation. If you think his right leg is in an externally rotated position at some instant near P5, I won't argue that point with you because I think it's really splitting hairs. It's the movement that's important to me.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Oct 9, 2013 22:46:10 GMT -5
Plain as day, Jamie's right heel lifts and the right knee moves towards the target line, not inward towards the ball. Jeffy, As Jamie's club is still moving backwards in that video he starts to lift the right heel and bend the knee forward, once he changes direction and reaches P4.5 the heel is well off the ground and the knee has completed it's forward movement, from that point the knee moves inward and buy the time he gets to P5 the knee and thigh are both moving inward. I don't call that movement external rotation. If you think his right leg is in an externally rotated position at some instant near P5, I won't argue that point with you you because I think it's really splitting hairs. It's the movement that's important to me. [/size][/quote] Uh, me too: I'm only interested in movement. Staying in right hip IR and not moving to ER is not a characteristic of an elite swing. Hardly think that is splitting hairs.
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Post by konrad on Oct 9, 2013 23:54:54 GMT -5
I'm only interested in movement. Staying in right hip IR and not moving to ER is not a characteristic of an elite swing. That's a damn good point.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 10, 2013 0:44:43 GMT -5
Jeffy wrote-: "Staying in right hip IR and not moving to ER is not a characteristic of an elite swing.".
Konrad replied-: "That's a damn good point".
I am glad to see that Konrad thinks that it's a damn good point!
Dual-ER at P5 happens for only an instant in time, but what is important is that the right hip joint moves from IR to ER because of the nature/pattern of the pelvic motion, and not the right leg motion. The right thigh/knee may be moving towards the ball during the early downswing, but it should be passive and not active. If it is too active, then the right hip joint will remain in IR.
Jeff.
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Post by konrad on Oct 10, 2013 16:54:24 GMT -5
[/i]". I am glad to see that Konrad thinks that it's a damn good point! [/quote] The reason I said it was a good point is because it's the same point about going from palmar flexion to less palmar flexion being extension. I PM'ed Jeffy and asked about this being a case of going from IR to less IR as being external rotation and he replied, yes, that is the correct way to look at it. He also made the point that he sees another potential source of confusion. "While the right hip moves from IR towards ER, the right knee, in many cases, is also moving a bit from ER to IR (towards the target)." I agree.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Oct 10, 2013 18:13:01 GMT -5
[/i]". I am glad to see that Konrad thinks that it's a damn good point! [/quote] The reason I said it was a good point is because it's the same point about going from palmar flexion to less palmar flexion being extension. I PM'ed Jeffy and asked about this being a case of going from IR to less IR as being external rotation and he replied, yes, that is the correct way to look at it. He also made the point that he sees another potential source of confusion. "While the left hip moves from IR towards ER, the right knee, in many cases, is also moving a bit from ER to IR (towards the target)." I agree.[/quote] Oops, I made a mistake in my PM that you copied here: I should have written "right hip". Sorry!
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Post by konrad on Oct 10, 2013 18:24:07 GMT -5
Funny how the mind works sometimes, even though I read and wrote "left hip", which is what you wrote in the PM, I was picturing the "right hip" in my mind. Edited my post. Thanks Jeffy for taking the time to answer my PM.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 10, 2013 21:18:04 GMT -5
Konrad,
You wrote-: "The reason I said it was a good point is because it's the same point about going from palmar flexion to less palmar flexion being extension.
I PM'ed Jeffy and asked about this being a case of going from IR to less IR as being external rotation and he replied, yes, that is the correct way to look at it. He also made the point that he sees another potential source of confusion. "While the right hip moves from IR towards ER, the right knee, in many cases, is also moving a bit from ER to IR (towards the target)." I agree."
I don't think that an analogy with the left wrist going from palmar flexion to less palmar flexion is apt - because that left wrist extension process only involves the movement of the distal segment (left hand) relative to the proximal segment (left forearm) while in the "pelvis motion" example, the degree of ER of the right hip joint at different time points during the downswing depends on the proportional degree of movement of both the proximal segment (right pelvis) and distal segment (right femur).
Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Oct 11, 2013 9:33:01 GMT -5
Konrad, You wrote-: " The reason I said it was a good point is because it's the same point about going from palmar flexion to less palmar flexion being extension.
I PM'ed Jeffy and asked about this being a case of going from IR to less IR as being external rotation and he replied, yes, that is the correct way to look at it. He also made the point that he sees another potential source of confusion. "While the right hip moves from IR towards ER, the right knee, in many cases, is also moving a bit from ER to IR (towards the target)." I agree." I don't think that an analogy with the left wrist going from palmar flexion to less palmar flexion is apt - because that left wrist extension process only involves the movement of the distal segment (left hand) relative to the proximal segment (left forearm) while in the "pelvis motion" example, the degree of ER of the right hip joint at different time points during the downswing depends on the proportional degree of movement of both the proximal segment (right pelvis) and distal segment (right femur).[/size] Jeff.[/quote] Jeff- You don't understand konrad's point. Earlier he thought that when I said "moving from bowed-to-cupped", I meant the wrist had become cupped, when what I actually meant was that the wrist was extending. He had a similar misunderstanding about the right hip moving from IR to ER. He thought you meant the right hip was already in ER. Now he understands you meant the pelvis was rotating counterclockwise around the right hip joint but not necessarily in ER at the time. That was his point. Jeff
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 11, 2013 9:52:49 GMT -5
Jeffy,
Your explanation makes no sense to me. How could Konrad have thought that I inferred that the right hip was already in ER at P4? It is in IR at P4 and it moves towards ER (which it reaches by P5) because the pelvis motion in a counterclockwise manner exceeds any movement of the right thigh in a counterclockwise manner. My Sam Snead diagram clearly shows the right hip in IR at P4 and slight ER at P5.
Jeff.
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