|
Post by tomdavis76 on Sept 17, 2013 22:39:55 GMT -5
I have seen his swing on camera and I agree. I can understand less shaft lean but I can't understand them advocating a flip at impact for a fade, makes no sense.LOL! What does a flip through impact predispose? A clubface that goes left and a left forearm that pronates. As I recall, this guy played a fade; looks like a flip to me: Also, ulnar deviation sends the clubface left. Fade follow-through on the right, draw on the left:
|
|
|
Post by chipitin on Sept 17, 2013 22:49:49 GMT -5
Yeah Hogan was a flipper...roflmao!!!
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 17, 2013 23:03:37 GMT -5
Jeffy made this comment about Hogan's swing-: " What does a flip through impact predispose? A clubface that goes left and a left forearm that pronates. As I recall, this guy played a fade; looks like a flip to me:" I don't see any evidence of flipping because Hogan still has an arched/bowed left wrist post-impact. Also, his left forearm is not pronating. One can clearly see that his left lower forearm/arched left wrist is rotating counterclockwise in those sequential images - which indicates "supination" and not "pronation". If you look at the radial border of the left distal radial bone just above the left wrist crease, at the start of the animated sequence - it is facing away from the target. In the last photo of the animated sequence, the radial border of the radial bone is facing the ball-target line. That represents a lot (~ 45 degrees) of counterclockwise rotation of the left lower forearm/AFLW through the immediate impact zone, and that counterclockwise roll action accounts for the fact that the clubshaft is ahead of the left forearm post-impact. A portion of the counterclockwise rotation of the AFLW (arched left wrist) is due to left forearm supination and part of it is due to external rotation of the left arm (note that the left antecubital fossa also rotates counterclockwise in that animated sequence between the first and last image). Jeffy can still not understand that flipping pre-impact/through impact/post-impact requires definite evidence of an overtly dorsiflexed left wrist - which is not seen in Hogan's swing action between P6.5 and P7.2+. To label Hogan a pro-flipper is an amazing error! I thought that only BM was capable of making that type of gross mistake. I, therefore, am not surprised that Jeffy also labels Westwood a flipper - when I have espoused an alternative opinion that makes much more sense - see post #1 in this thread newtongolfinstitute.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=golfinstruction&action=display&thread=475Addendum added later: I took the last image in Jeffy's animated gif, and drew a blue dotted line along the length of the left forearm, and a red dotted line along the back of his left hand. The red dotted line is behind the blue dotted line - which is incompatible with flipping (left wrist dorsflexion). I have also drawn a blue line over the front of Hogan's left antecubital fossa and a red line along the radial border of the radial bone just above the left wrist crease. I think that the red line has rotated more counterclockwise than the blue line (compared to the P6.8 position), which means that the left forearm has supinated, and not pronated, between P6.8 and P7.2. Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by chipitin on Sept 18, 2013 0:25:20 GMT -5
Let's see what does a flip through impact predispose? oh I know a pull, a pull hook, a topped shot, poor compression and the number one thing a flip does for a tour pro....takes him off the tour. ;D Hogan never flipped, he's a drive holder remember Tom. and he was closed to open ... somehow that doesn't fit with a flip. Back to the drawing board , I wonder if Hogan knew about the 130 micro moves.... how did he ever play golf without the 130?...lol!! Image 1 is how Tom aka Jeffy says Hogan is at impact for a fade.. flipped/dorsi-flexed left wrist,, image 4 is actually how Hogan is....hmmmmm? can Tom actually be wrong..... yes!!! If Hogan's a flipper .... Tiger must be a flipper also!
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 18, 2013 8:19:12 GMT -5
Another point - consider yet again Jeffy's animated gif of Hogan.
He drew the yellow line along the clubshaft and he noted that it was straight-in-line with the back of his left hand (not the left forearm) pre-impact. Then, he draws a yellow line along the clubshaft post-impact and he notes that the yellow line goes behind the back of his left hand. How is that possible - even if a golfer is flipper who dorsiflexes the left wrist through impact? The yellow line should still be inline with the back of the left hand if the club doesn't move within the left hand - even if it is behind the left forearm due to the flipping action. The fact that the yellow line is not straight-in-line with the back of his left hand post-impact indicates that there is "another phenomenon" happening that alters one's perspective of what is actually happening?
Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by chipitin on Sept 18, 2013 10:33:13 GMT -5
And another point- in Hogan's book 5l he spends sometime telling his readership about the perils of flipping( in his words "pronating the wrists") and how it's wrong. Hogan says: it changes the arc and plane-catches the ball low on the blade. Skulls it or hits back of the ball( fat) If the face of the club is open he gets a scoop slice-If the face is closed, he pulls as well as hooks. Yeah Hogan was a flipper and advocated flipping for a fade! Tom needs to re-read 5l. He likes to quote from it when it suits his purpose but when it doesn't he just makes up his own Hogan. I notice a lot of Hoganites do this.
|
|
|
Post by tomdavis76 on Sept 18, 2013 19:04:59 GMT -5
Jeff-
You seem to be focused on a position (dorsiflexed left wrist at impact) instead of a movement (left wrist going from flexion to extension, aka "flipping"). In the downswing, Hogan's left wrist initially cups, then it bows about waist high, then it cups again in the follow-through. Just because the left wrist hasn't dorsiflexed at impact doesn't mean Hogan isn't going from flexion to extension, or from bowed to cupped, "through impact".
In the follow-through, in addition to the left wrist cupping, one can easily see that Hogan's left forearm pronates (even Manzella and Johnny Miller have published videos that highlight this movement). These are characteristics of a fader, or a player that releases shut-to-open. A roller that releases open-to-shut would have a flatter left wrist and a more supinated left forearm in the follow-through.
Jeff
|
|
|
Post by tomdavis76 on Sept 18, 2013 19:41:44 GMT -5
Let's see what does a flip through impact predispose? oh I know a pull, a pull hook, a topped shot, poor compression and the number one thing a flip does for a tour pro....takes him off the tour. ;D Let's see: Ian Baker Finch, Oosthuizen, Kaymer, Harrington are some of the major champions who flip a lot more than post-accident Hogan. Westwood flips even more and has the long game to have won several majors. Also, nearly every tour pro (the only exception I can think of is Gmac) "flips" on sand shots, yet they don't pull, pull hook or top sand shots. Neither do tour players that flip on flop shots. Ever see this video of Couples hitting a short iron? He likes a fade and is still on tour, last I checked.. Well, I posted a GIF of Hogan flipping post-accident, so it looks like he DID flip. As Snead and Nicklaus got older, they flipped, too. And a flip goes very well with closed-to-open. Why would Hogan have to "know about" them to do them? Sadlowski and Bubba do all 130 and I can guarantee you they don't "know about" any of them! Where did I say Hogan had a dorsiflexed left wrist at impact to hit a fade? In fact, at his ballstriking peak (early 2000s), Tiger cupped the left wrist and pronated the left forearm in the follow-through just like Hogan. And his stock shot was a fade; in fact, I have heard that he had a hard time hitting a draw during that period. Anyway, this is all really old news. Kelvin lays it out in this article from February 2012: www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2012-02-ben-hogans-release-and-how-youre-never-going-to-get-it.html
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 18, 2013 19:43:17 GMT -5
Jeffy, You wrote-: "In the downswing, Hogan's left wrist initially cups, then it bows about waist high, then it cups again in the follow-through. Just because the left wrist hasn't dorsiflexed at impact doesn't mean Hogan isn't going from flexion to extension, or from cupped to bowed, "through impact"."
I presume that's a typo because if the left wrist is going from flexion to extension through impact, then it must be going from bowed => cupped, and not from cupped => bowed. It's a theoretical possibility, but not a reality because I have never seen Hogan's left wrist going from bowed => cupped between P6.8 and P7.2. If the left wrist dorsiflexes after P7.2, then that's irrelevant because it is well beyond the immediate impact zone. Flipping must occur between P6.8 and P7.2 to be labelled through-impact flipping or immediate post-impact flipping (pro-flipping) and Hogan never manifests any evidence of flipping. The same principle applies to most PGA tour golfers - they do not flip, and they maintain an intact LAFW to P7.2+. By maintaining an intact LAFW through the immediate impact zone from P6.8-P7.2, one avoids the timing issue related to a flipping (superadded left wrist horizontal hinging) action - and that represents part of my definition of a DHer hand release action. I think that "maintaining an intact LAFW through impact" is one of the most important/usefful golf fundamentals.
Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by tomdavis76 on Sept 18, 2013 19:48:51 GMT -5
Jeff-
Yes, it was a typo. Thanks.
Again, you are fixated on a position, not the movement.
Jeff
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 18, 2013 19:57:31 GMT -5
Jeffy,
You wrote-: "In the follow-through, in addition to the left wrist cupping, one can easily see that Hogan's left forearm pronates (even Manzella and Johnny Miller have published videos that highlight this movement). These are characteristics of a fader, or a player that releases shut-to-open. A roller that releases open-to-shut would have a flatter left wrist and a more supinated left forearm in the follow-through."
I don't believe that Hogan's left forearm ever pronated after impact. He supinated pre-impact and he then didn't continue to roll his lower left forearm/FLW between P7 and P7.2+ because he used a no-roll hand release action. Left forearm pronation would require a clockwise rotation (reverse rotation) of the left forearm after impact, and I have never seen that happen (unless a golfer uses a reverse-roll hand release action). I think that the description "shut-to-open" is meaningless because I have never seen it happen in a skilled golfer. Dustin Johnson may have a closed clubface at P4 (due to left wrist plamar flexion) but that disappears by P6.5, and he still has to use a PA#3 release action between P6.5 to P7 (which means that he is going from open => square in his late downswing).
Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 18, 2013 20:02:04 GMT -5
Jeffy,
You wrote-: "Again, you are fixated on a position, not the movement."
Wrong! I am fixated on the motion of an intact LAFW/FLW through the impact zone in a DHer manner, and I don't want the motion to be disrupted by any flipping or rolling motion that will make a golfer a non-DHer.
Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by tomdavis76 on Sept 18, 2013 20:29:21 GMT -5
Jeffy, You wrote-: " In the follow-through, in addition to the left wrist cupping, one can easily see that Hogan's left forearm pronates (even Manzella and Johnny Miller have published videos that highlight this movement). These are characteristics of a fader, or a player that releases shut-to-open. A roller that releases open-to-shut would have a flatter left wrist and a more supinated left forearm in the follow-through." I don't believe that Hogan's left forearm ever pronated after impact. He supinated pre-impact and he then didn't continue to roll his lower left forearm/FLW between P7 and P7.2+ because he used a no-roll hand release action. Left forearm pronation would require a clockwise rotation (reverse rotation) of the left forearm after impact, and I have never seen that happen (unless a golfer uses a reverse-roll hand release action). I think that the description "shut-to-open" is meaningless because I have never seen it happen in a skilled golfer. Dustin Johnson may have a closed clubface at P4 (due to left wrist plamar flexion) but that disappears by P6.5, and he still has to use a PA#3 release action between P6.5 to P7 (which means that he is going from open => square in his late downswing). Jeff. Jeff- Well, pronation in the follow-through does happen; you just need to study a little more closely. And shut-to-open is not meaningless once you've been taught how to do it. Maybe that's the only way to realize it exists and is a GREAT way to play. Jeff
|
|
|
Post by chipitin on Sept 18, 2013 20:51:43 GMT -5
Hogan didn't flip nor did Tiger and Tiger still doesn't. Your's and Kelvin's definition of a flip is not a flip it's just made up nonsense to support Kelvin's theory and his release concepts.... full of holes as demonstrated by Dr. Mann.
|
|
|
Post by chipitin on Sept 18, 2013 21:05:11 GMT -5
Let's see what does a flip through impact predispose? oh I know a pull, a pull hook, a topped shot, poor compression and the number one thing a flip does for a tour pro....takes him off the tour. ;D Let's see: Ian Baker Finch, Oosthuizen, Kaymer, Harrington are some of the major champions who flip a lot more than post-accident Hogan. Westwood flips even more and has the long game to have won several majors. Also, nearly every tour pro (the only exception I can think of is Gmac) "flips" on sand shots, yet they don't pull, pull hook or top sand shots. Neither do tour players that flip on flop shots. Ever see this video of Couples hitting a short iron? He likes a fade and is still on tour, last I checked.. Well, I posted a GIF of Hogan flipping post-accident, so it looks like he DID flip. As Snead and Nicklaus got older, they flipped, too. And a flip goes very well with closed-to-open. Why would Hogan have to "know about" them to do them? Sadlowski and Bubba do all 130 and I can guarantee you they don't "know about" any of them! Where did I say Hogan had a dorsiflexed left wrist at impact to hit a fade? In fact, at his ballstriking peak (early 2000s), Tiger cupped the left wrist and pronated the left forearm in the follow-through just like Hogan. And his stock shot was a fade; in fact, I have heard that he had a hard time hitting a draw during that period. Anyway, this is all really old news. Kelvin lays it out in this article from February 2012: www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2012-02-ben-hogans-release-and-how-youre-never-going-to-get-it.htmlGee Tom do you hit the ball first in the sand or hit the sand first? It's a ridiculous statement trying to equate a green side bunker shot with what I said.....really...lol! No you didn't post a Gif of Hogan flipping. Who cares after impact at impact Hogan has a flat to bowed wrist and the ball doesn't care after impact as it gets it's orders in the impact interval not after it's in the air..... roflmao!!! Geeez, that's too funny!
|
|