|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 18, 2013 21:48:24 GMT -5
Jeffy,
You wrote-: "Well, pronation in the follow-through does happen; you just need to study a little more closely. And shut-to-open is not meaningless once you've been taught how to do it. Maybe that's the only way to realize it exists and is a GREAT way to play."
I have only seen pronation happen in the followthrough when a golfer uses a reverse-roll hand release action - designed to keep the clubface open through impact eg. for bunker shots or lob/flop shots.
I will be willing to study a golf swing that you believe is "shut-to-open" to see whether it really exists. I don't believe that it does. For example, you believe that early left forearm supination causes a closed clubface, but I have demonstrated that the closed clubface phenomenon dissipates by P6.5 (when the palmar flexed left wrist moves from radial deviation => ulnar deviation), which means that a golfer still has to perform an open => square clubface action (PA#3 release action) between P6.5-P7. So, I am skeptical about there being a "shut-to-open" golf swing action. Show me an example.
Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by tomdavis76 on Sept 18, 2013 22:00:20 GMT -5
Jeff-
I have already given you 2000 Tiger and Hogan as "shut-to-open" examples. There are many. Knowing you as I do, you will never accept it unless you experience it for yourself. No reason for me to try to persuade you.
Jeff
|
|
|
Post by tomdavis76 on Sept 18, 2013 22:10:55 GMT -5
Gee Tom do you hit the ball first in the sand or hit the sand first? It's a ridiculous statement trying to equate a green side bunker shot with what I said.....really...lol! Gee, do Westwood, Harrington, Chad Campbell, Kaymer, Oosthuizen, Couples, etc. hit the ball or the ground first? The only time a flip produces pulls and pull hooks is if it is combined with rolling. Not many flip/rollers make it to tour. No, Hogan is clearly going from bowed to cupped; in other words, "flipping". Going from bowed to cupped is the same movement whether or not the left wrist is dorsiflexed at impact or a bit later. And it is the movement of the forearm and wrists that influences face and path, not an instantaneous position at impact.
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 18, 2013 22:11:00 GMT -5
Jeffy,
In what sense is Tiger performing a shut-to-open golf swing action? I don't have to perform it personally to understand it from an intellectual perspective. Simply define what you mean by "shut-to-open" and show me how Tiger is performing that action. I believe that TW, like most PGA tour golfers, plays golf with an intact LAFW from P4 to P7.3+ (sometimes even to beyond P8), and playing golf with an intact LAFW/FLW is definitely not a "shut-to-open" swing action.
Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by tomdavis76 on Sept 18, 2013 22:16:12 GMT -5
Jeffy, In what sense is Tiger performing a shut-to-open golf swing action? I don't have to perform it personally to understand it from an intellectual perspective. Simply define what you mean by "shut-to-open" and show me how Tiger is performing that action. I believe that TW, like most PGA tour golfers, plays golf with an intact LAFW from P4 to P7.3+ (sometimes even to beyond P8), and playing golf with an intact LAFW/FLW is definitely not a "shut-to-open" swing action.Jeff. Jeff- You are wrong in your belief if you define "intact" as meaning unchanged. That simply is not reality. Kel has laid this all out in his articles. I'm not going to try to persuade you he is right. Jeff
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 19, 2013 10:12:16 GMT -5
Jeffy, In which article did KM discuss Tiger's "shut-to-open" swing action. You are free to believe that a golfer cannot maintain an intact LAFW/FLW between P4 and P7.2+. I have shown that many PGA tour golfers achieve that goal. I used Keegan Bradley and Tiger Woods as examples in my review papers. I showed how Keegan Bradley maintains an intact LAFW/FLW throughout his entire downswing in Q&A number 22 of my downswing chapter ( perfectgolfswingreview.net/downswing.htm ) and I showed how Tiger Woods even maintains an intact LAFW/FLW well beyond impact and it is clear that he still has an intact LAFW/FLW from P7.2 to P8+ in his short iron swing - see Q&A number 11 of my impact chapter ( perfectgolfswingreview.net/impact.htm ). Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by chipitin on Sept 19, 2013 12:15:30 GMT -5
Gee Tom do you hit the ball first in the sand or hit the sand first? It's a ridiculous statement trying to equate a green side bunker shot with what I said.....really...lol! Gee, do Westwood, Harrington, Chad Campbell, Kaymer, Oosthuizen, Couples, etc. hit the ball or the ground first? The only time a flip produces pulls and pull hooks is if it is combined with rolling. Not many flip/rollers make it to tour. No, Hogan is clearly going from bowed to cupped; in other words, "flipping". Going from bowed to cupped is the same movement whether or not the left wrist is dorsiflexed at impact or a bit later. And it is the movement of the forearm and wrists that influences face and path, not an instantaneous position at impact. Gee Tom they hit the ball first, that's the point! In a green side bunker you can flip because you are hitting back of the ball essentially a fat shot and a flip helps to accomplish this as it can affect low point while also keeping the loft on the face. Exactly my point Tom, that's why you don't want to have a dorsi flexed wrist at impact as you said it's the wrists and forearm movements that affects face and path among other factors and those wrist and forearm movements affect the impact conditions. ;D Once the ball is gone it cannot be influenced by your idea of a flip. And the wrist going towards a cupped position but not achieving it at impact but maybe achieving it beyond impact is not a flip at impact. No tour player is flipping at impact where it would be a mishit, unless they want to for the required shot..i.e. a flop shot or green side bunker shot. They want consistent solid contact and flipping does not produce that at impact. The fact is no one is teaching people to flip at impact, they all are doing the opposite....why? Simple answer because hackers flip before, through and after impact and good players don't. If you and Kelvin think Tour players flip at the impact interval and are in a dorsiflexed lead wrist condition on normal shots, God bless you and good luck with that concept. You can now return to the Mike Duffy Inquisition.... geez!
|
|
|
Post by chipitin on Sept 19, 2013 13:18:27 GMT -5
Oh I forgot to add in on a sand shot you can flip because you want to utilize the bounce of the club and you can vary the amount of bounce used if you so wish. I was wondering Tom do you actually play golf, seems like you don't from the statements you come out with, you need to have actual application of your concept( flipping) at impact and then report back the results. Didn't you start all of this because you flipped at impact and wanted to stop, I thought I read where you took lessons from Manzella to help you stop flipping at impact....why if it is such a good concept would you seek to cure it?....hmmmm? I think you will find it isn't a good concept. The whole issue is boiled down to your definition of a flip and everyone else's definition of a flip. Your definition is ...well let's just say it's unique.
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 19, 2013 17:10:00 GMT -5
Jeffy didn't define the term "closed-to-open" and he simply stated that I should look at KM's articles. I found this article that discuses the "closed-to-open" phenomenon - www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2012-02-ben-hogans-release-and-how-youre-never-going-to-get-it.htmlIn that article, KM stated-: " The key difference is that Hogan may have been wide open at the top of his backswing but he closed his clubface much earlier in the downswing (through supination of left forearm) and used right wrist flexion, supination and ulnar deviation (seen from target line view) to impede any more clubface rotation thereafter. Some have coined this method a “closed to open” release pattern. I think it is appropriate in Hogan’s case. " It is true that Hogan may have closed the clubface earlier (between P5.5 and P6.2) due to the "left forearm supination" phenomenon, which involves left wrist palmar flexion - and it is the left wrist palmar flexion that actually closes the clubface when it is in a radially-deviated condition. However, that clubface-closing phenomenon disappears by P6.5, and Hogan still had to close the clubface between P6.5 and P7 using a PA#3 release action. Therefore, KM's statement " ---used right wrist flexion, supination and ulnar deviation (seen from target line view) to impede any more clubface rotation thereafter is untrue/flawed. During the right arm straightening action (right forearm paddlewheeling action) that happens in the late downswing, the straightening right arm synergistically assists in the complete release of PA#3. KM posted these images of Hogan He then stated-: " Look how square the clubface is just before impact! Early supination of the left forearm and left wrist flexion are apparent." He is obviously wrong! The left forearm is still pronated pre-impact (first image) and the clubface is slightly open. There is approximately a 45 degree rotation of his bowed left wrist between the pre-impact image (image 1) and the post-impact image (image 2) and that is due to the release of PA#3. KM then posted this image of Tiger Woods. KM then stated-: " Here’s Tiger from the early days hitting a punch shot. You think Tiger knew how to do this?". KM is seemingly implying that Tiger is using the "closed-to-open" technique. However, Tiger's clubface is still open and his AFLW still has to rotate counterclockwise into impact in order to square the clubface, and he does that via the release of PA#3. The concept that there is a "closed-to-open" clubface phenomenon happening (as described by KM) is a fallacy - even if KM/Jeffy wrongly believe in that "fact"! Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by chipitin on Sept 19, 2013 19:06:52 GMT -5
Jeff- Tom and Kelvin don't understand anything about PA3, that's obvious.
|
|
|
Post by tomdavis76 on Sept 19, 2013 20:47:45 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 19, 2013 22:26:45 GMT -5
Jeffy, You wrote-: " I've explained this before, but you keep pulling out the same old strawman to knock down. "Early supination" does not mean 100% of the required supination is achieved "early"". You are now admitting for the first time that any early left forearm supination doesn't mean that a golfer doesn't need late left forearm supination (that happens between P6.5-P7). You previously stated that the concept of late left forearm supination was a fantasy! Now, you are willing to admit that late left forearm supination (which is the biomechanical mechanism that underlies the release of PA#3) exists - in inverse relationship to left hand grip strength (a golfer with a very strong left hand grip uses no late left forearm supination). What you still have not admitted is the reason why late left forearm supination is required to close the clubface by impact - and the reason is because any clubface-closing effect of early left forearm supination (which is actually due to the left wrist palmar flexion happening concurrently with the left wrist in radial deviation) dissipates by P6.5. I looked at that KM article. I cannot see any relevance to those many, many photos of golfers at the P6 position. What KM also fails to grasp is that one should not only look at the angle of the clubface at the P6 position in relationship to the ground - more importantly, one should look at the clubface angle relative to the back of the left lower forearm and back of the left hand. KM should also look a the angle of the left arm relative to the ground - if the left arm is near-vertical and the clubface is vertical at P6 it doesn't have the same significance as a left arm that is angled at 60 degrees relative to the ground with a vertical clubface. KM posted this image of a robot machine in that article. KM then stated-: " Of course you could swing like a robot and have the clubface square to the path at all times. Hmmmm, that top of the backswing clubface position of the robot looks a lot like... Dustin Johson??". What KM fails to realize is that DJ doesn't keep his clubface square to the path throughout the entire downswing (like the robot) because the clubface-closing effect of his left wrist palmar flexion disappears by P6.5, and DJ therefore still has to use a PA#3 release action (involving late left forearm supination) to close the open clubface (which exists at P6.5) by impact. Here is visual evidence of Dustin Johnson performing a late left forearm supination action. Note how open his clubface is at P6.5 (image 4) and note how much his bowed left wrist rotates counterclockwise between image 4 and image 6. Most importantly, look at the relationship of DJ's clubface relative to the back of his left lower forearm at P6, P6.5, P6.8 and P7 - note that the clubface becomes progressively less closed relative to the back of his left lower forearm as he moves from P6 to P7. KM is seemingly unaware of this critical "fact". Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by tomdavis76 on Sept 19, 2013 22:35:14 GMT -5
Jeffy, You wrote-: " I've explained this before, but you keep pulling out the same old strawman to knock down. "Early supination" does not mean 100% of the required supination is achieved "early"". You are now admitting for the first time that any early left forearm supination doesn't mean that a golfer doesn't need late left forearm supination (that happens between P6.5-P7). You previously stated that the concept of late left forearm supination was a fantasy! Now, you are willing to admit that late left forearm supination (which is the biomechanical mechanism that underlies the release of PA#3) exists - in inverse relationship to left hand grip strength (a golfer with a very strong left hand grip uses no late left forearm supination). What you still have not admitted is the reason why late left forearm supination is required to close the clubface by impact - and the reason is because any clubface-closing effect of early left forearm supination (which is actually due to the left wrist palmar flexion happening concurrently with the left wrist in radial deviation) dissipates by P6.5. I looked at that KM article. I cannot see any relevance to those many, many photos of golfers at the P6 position. What KM also fails to grasp is that one should not only look at the angle of the clubface at the P6 position in relationship to the ground - more importantly, one should look at the clubface angle relative to the back of the left lower forearm and back of the left hand. KM should also look a the angle of the left arm relative to the ground [/b] - if the left arm is near-vertical and the clubface is vertical at P6 it doesn't have the same significance as a left arm that is angled at 60 degrees relative to the ground with a vertical clubface. KM posted this image of a robot machine in that article. KM then stated-: " Of course you could swing like a robot and have the clubface square to the path at all times. Hmmmm, that top of the backswing clubface position of the robot looks a lot like... Dustin Johson??". What KM fails to realize is that DJ doesn't keep his clubface square to the path throughout the entire downswing (like the robot) because the clubface-closing effect of his left wrist palmar flexion disappears by P6.5, and DJ therefore still has to use a PA#3 release action (involving late left forearm supination) to close the open clubface (which exists at P6.5) by impact. Here is visual evidence of Dustin Johnson performing a late left forearm supination action. Note how open his clubface is at P6.5 (image 4) and note how much his bowed left wrist rotates counterclockwise between image 4 and image 6. Jeff. [/quote] Jeff- Duh. Everyone who spent five seconds thinking about it knows that "early supination" did not mean "100% supination". The fantasy was your implication that "late supination" was somehow an option. Everyone has "late supination", even DJ and Tommy Gainey. Geez. Jeff
|
|
|
Post by tomdavis76 on Sept 19, 2013 22:45:52 GMT -5
KM posted this image of a robot machine in that article. KM then stated-: " Of course you could swing like a robot and have the clubface square to the path at all times. Hmmmm, that top of the backswing clubface position of the robot looks a lot like... Dustin Johson??". What KM fails to realize is that DJ doesn't keep his clubface square to the path throughout the entire downswing (like the robot) because the clubface-closing effect of his left wrist palmar flexion disappears by P6.5, and DJ therefore still has to use a PA#3 release action (involving late left forearm supination) to close the open clubface (which exists at P6.5) by impact. Here is visual evidence of Dustin Johnson performing a late left forearm supination action. Note how open his clubface is at P6.5 (image 4) and note how much his bowed left wrist rotates counterclockwise between image 4 and image 6. Most importantly, look at the relationship of DJ's clubface relative to the back of his left lower forearm at P6, P6.5, P6.8 and P7 - note that the clubface becomes progressively less closed relative to the back of his left lower forearm as he moves from P6 to P7. KM is seemingly unaware of this critical "fact". Jeff. You're kidding, right? Kel clearly acknowledges that DJ does not maintain a clubface that is square to the arc throughout the downswing: Of course it’s far more complex than that because external rotation of the right shoulder on the downswing will naturally open the clubface so it’s physically impossible to swing like a robot. Nice dream though.You read the article: you must know this. The only rational conclusion is that, like Ray, you just like to argue for the sake of arguing and will blatantly make things up to argue with! You two are made for each other. Jeff
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 19, 2013 23:07:27 GMT -5
Jeffy,
You wrote-: "The fantasy was your implication that late supination" was somehow an option"". Wow! You are grossly distorting reality to infer that you have always believed in the necessity for late left forearm supination. However, you cannot rationally hope to re-write history in flagrant disregard for the "truth" because your old posts are still present in this forum.
You wrote-: "You're kidding, right? Kel clearly acknowledges that DJ does not maintain a clubface that is square to the arc throughout the downswing"
Where does he acknowledge that "fact"?
You also wrote-: "Of course it’s far more complex than that because external rotation of the right shoulder on the downswing will naturally open the clubface so it’s physically impossible to swing like a robot. Nice dream though."
How does external rotation of the right humerus open the clubface? It certainly doesn't alter the relationship of the clubface to the back of the back of the GFLW or left lower forearm, or do you believe otherwise?
Jeff.
|
|