|
Post by konrad on Oct 8, 2013 14:02:18 GMT -5
How does a strong left hand grip predispose to clubshaft shallowing? Why should a weak left hand grip predispose to flipping? Why should a golfer with a strong left hand grip have to fight to keep the face open? These sound like questions from somebody who has never played golf! I would have to agree with this. Can't believe Jeff made those comments.
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 8, 2013 16:13:45 GMT -5
Chipitin,
You wrote-: "There are different ways to accomplish things. There is no rigid written in stone way of doing a swing, there are options, that by now should be obvious.
You always want to know why someone would do things different than your idea of things, it's because there is no particular way, people are different and feel things differently we have an ability to adjust things to our own style and still accomplish a task."
Of course - any golfer can do things differently and in any personal manner. However, my area of interest is golf swing biomechanics/mechanics and I am interested in the reasons why a golfer would choose not to maintain an intact LAFW/FLW throughout the swing action.
You also wrote-: "I never said through impact. If Hogan did pure P.F. and no gamma how do you explain his clubface angle in a more closed/less open position especially if he hasn't done any early supination and pure P.F. doesn't alter the face angle?"
Hogan's clubface was only temporarily closed from about P5.5 to P6.5 due to left wrist palmar flexion and twistaway (what you call applying gamma torque), which was happening when his left wrist was radially deviated, but that closed clubface phenomenon disappeared by P6.5. From P6.5 to P7 he was releasing PA#3 without applying gamma torque in a twistaway manner.
I have discussed this issue in great detail in that video that I made on this topic - and which I have already referenced. You have presumably not watched the video.
Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 8, 2013 16:15:34 GMT -5
Konrad,
Why don't you educate me by answering these questions?
i) How does a strong left hand grip predispose to clubshaft shallowing?
ii) Why should a weak left hand grip predispose to flipping?
iii) Why should a golfer with a strong left hand grip have to fight to keep the face open?
Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by chipitin on Oct 8, 2013 16:33:42 GMT -5
Dr. Mann said :"Of course - any golfer can do things differently and in any personal manner. However, my area of interest is golf swing biomechanics/mechanics and I am interested in the reasons why a golfer would choose not to maintain an intact LAFW/FLW throughout the swing action."
It's probably not a deliberate conscious choice but one of feel from playing golf at an early age or something else, it doesn't really matter to the why if it works , as lot's of golfers do things that seem to be unconventional but yet they can play excellent golf. Golf is not a game of perfect.
|
|
|
Post by konrad on Oct 8, 2013 17:58:12 GMT -5
I am interested in the reasons why a golfer would choose not to maintain an intact LAFW/FLW throughout the swing action. Maximizing speed for one.
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 8, 2013 19:09:50 GMT -5
Why do you believe that maintaining an intact LAFW/FLW from P4 to P7.2+ prevents a golfer from obtaining maximum clubhead speed?
Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by konrad on Oct 8, 2013 19:46:07 GMT -5
Why do you believe that maintaining an intact LAFW/FLW from P4 to P7.2+ prevents a golfer from obtaining maximum clubhead speed? Jeff. You said "throughout the swing" and the players that hit it the farthest don't maintain an intact LAFW/FLW throughout their swings. Just take a look at long drive guys. Blows your mind, doesn't it?
|
|
|
Post by tomdavis76 on Oct 8, 2013 20:11:36 GMT -5
How quickly things change, or is it that Dr, Mann inhabits two competing alternative universes??? Chipitin, You wrote-: " There are different ways to accomplish things. There is no rigid written in stone way of doing a swing, there are options, that by now should be obvious.
You always want to know why someone would do things different than your idea of things, it's because there is no particular way, people are different and feel things differently we have an ability to adjust things to our own style and still accomplish a task." Of course - any golfer can do things differently and in any personal manner. However, my area of interest is golf swing biomechanics/mechanics and I am interested in the reasons why a golfer would choose not to maintain an intact LAFW/FLW throughout the swing action. You also wrote-: " I never said through impact. If Hogan did pure P.F. and no gamma how do you explain his clubface angle in a more closed/less open position especially if he hasn't done any early supination and pure P.F. doesn't alter the face angle?" Hogan's clubface was only temporarily closed from about P5.5 to P6.5 due to left wrist palmar flexion and twistaway (what you call applying gamma torque), which was happening when his left wrist was radially deviated, but that closed clubface phenomenon disappeared by P6.5. From P6.5 to P7 he was releasing PA#3 without applying gamma torque in a twistaway manner.[/size][/quote] What is this "twistaway" and "gamma torque" BS? The movement is called left forearm supination. Anyway, what you describe sounds a lot like early supination and PF followed by extension and pronation. But, you said this about Hogan just a few weeks ago: Jeffy made this comment about Hogan's swing-: "What does a flip through impact predispose? A clubface that goes left and a left forearm that pronates. As I recall, this guy played a fade; looks like a flip to me:"I don't see any evidence of flipping because Hogan still has an arched/bowed left wrist post-impact. Also, his left forearm is not pronating. One can clearly see that his left lower forearm/arched left wrist is rotating counterclockwise in those sequential images - which indicates "supination" and not "pronation". If you look at the radial border of the left distal radial bone just above the left wrist crease, at the start of the animated sequence - it is facing away from the target. In the last photo of the animated sequence, the radial border of the radial bone is facing the ball-target line. That represents a lot (~ 45 degrees) of counterclockwise rotation of the left lower forearm/AFLW through the immediate impact zone, and that counterclockwise roll action accounts for the fact that the clubshaft is ahead of the left forearm post-impact. A portion of the counterclockwise rotation of the AFLW (arched left wrist) is due to left forearm supination and part of it is due to external rotation of the left arm (note that the left antecubital fossa also rotates counterclockwise in that animated sequence between the first and last image). [/size] Addendum added later: I took the last image in Jeffy's animated gif, and drew a blue dotted line along the length of the left forearm, and a red dotted line along the back of his left hand. The red dotted line is behind the blue dotted line - which is incompatible with flipping (left wrist dorsflexion). [/quote] So, Dr. Mann, which of your alternative universes is it? The universe where Hogan rolls through impact but doesn't flip, or the universe where Hogan supinates/PFs before impact, "temporarily closing" the face, and then opens the face from "temporarily closed" (i.e., pronates)?
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 8, 2013 20:48:41 GMT -5
Konrad, You posted a video of Patrick Hopper and you stated-: "Y ou said "throughout the swing" and the players that hit it the farthest don't maintain an intact LAFW/FLW throughout their swings. Just take a look at long drive guys. Blows your mind, doesn't it?I didn't say "throughout the swing" because it is very difficult to maintain an intact LAFW/FLW beyond P7.3. I therefore specified P7.2 in my statement. What blows my mind is the fact that some long-drive competitors can avoid flipping between P7 and P7.2 despite hitting 400+ yard drives. Capture images show that his clubshaft doesn't bypass his left arm between P7 and P7.2 (image 2). Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 8, 2013 21:01:07 GMT -5
Jeffy,
You asked-: "So, Dr. Mann, which of your alternative universes is it? The universe where Hogan rolls through impact but doesn't flip, or the universe where Hogan supinates/PFs before impact, "temporarily closing" the face, and then opens the face from "temporarily closed" (i.e., pronates)?"
The back of Hogan's AFLW (slightly palmar flexed left wrist) and the radial border of Hogan's left lower forearm is rotating counterclockwise between those two images that constitute your animated gif - images at P6.8 and P7.2. Those two images do not contain a P7 image, which is missing - so one cannot determine precisely what is causing the counterclockwise rotation between P6.8 and P7 (pre-impact) versus between P7 and P7.2 (post-impact) . I strongly suspect (based on studying many other DHers) that the pre-impact counterclockwise rotation is primarily due to left forearm supination while the post-impact counterclockwise rotation is primarily due to external rotation of the left arm combined with a body rotation that can cause a counterclockwise rotary motion of the left arm/clubshaft unit without there being any independent external rotation of the left humeral head within the left shoulder socket. Unfortunately, there are no slow motion videos of Hogan's swing taken with a Phantom camera that would allow me to confirm my impression.
Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by konrad on Oct 8, 2013 22:10:08 GMT -5
I didn't say "throughout the swing" Oh yes you did! I am interested in the reasons why a golfer would choose not to maintain an intact LAFW/FLW throughout the swing action.
|
|
|
Post by tomdavis76 on Oct 8, 2013 22:38:48 GMT -5
The back of Hogan's AFLW (slightly palmar flexed left wrist) and the radial border of Hogan's left lower forearm is rotating counterclockwise between those two images that constitute your animated gif - images at P6.8 and P7.2. Those two images do not contain a P7 image, which is missing - so one cannot determine precisely what is causing the counterclockwise rotation between P6.8 and P7 (pre-impact) versus between P7 and P7.2 (post-impact) . Jeff. Not sure I understand, Dr. Mann. You didn't need a a still of P7 on September 17th to assess Hogan's movements through impact: you were unambiguous and spoke without qualification: One can clearly see that his left lower forearm/arched left wrist is rotating counterclockwise in those sequential images - which indicates "supination" and not "pronation". [/b]
|
|
|
Post by tomdavis76 on Oct 8, 2013 22:49:07 GMT -5
I strongly suspect (based on studying many other DHers) that the pre-impact counterclockwise rotation is primarily due to left forearm supination while the post-impact counterclockwise rotation is primarily due to external rotation of the left arm combined with a body rotation that can cause a counterclockwise rotary motion of the left arm/clubshaft unit without there being any independent external rotation of the left humeral head within the left shoulder socket. Dr. Mann, what is the practical difference between counter-clockwise rotation that arises from left shoulder external rotation instead of left forearm supination? Why wouldn't a skilled golfer like Hogan simply halt all counter-clockwise rotation through impact?
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 8, 2013 23:47:22 GMT -5
Jeffy,
You asked why I made this statement-: "One can clearly see that his left lower forearm/arched left wrist is rotating counterclockwise in those sequential images - which indicates "supination" and not "pronation".
It was to counter your BS claim that Hogan was pronating his left forearm through impact, which would have required a clockwise rotation of the radial border of the left forearm. I could see that the radial border was rotating counterclockwise, which is in the direction of supination. It is difficult to know what proportion of any counterclockwise rotation of the radial border of the left lower forearm is due to left forearm supination versus upper arm rotation without having access to a P7 image and also multiple frames in the P6.8-P7.2 zone. It is certainly possible that all the rotation seen in your animated gif happened pre-impact and that Hogan didn't rotate further between P7 and P7.2, which means that he was drive-holding between P7 and P7.2 (like Kellie Oride). However, one is obviously guessing - when one doesn't have enough capture frames to study. By contrast, one can clearly see what is happening in Kellie Oride's impact zone because of the high quality of the video, and there is no visual evidence that she flips or rolls between P7 and P7.2. You have still not provided any "evidence" to show that she is flipping even though you adamantly insist that she is flipping.
Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 8, 2013 23:54:45 GMT -5
Konrad,
I have repeatedly stated many, many times that when I use the term "throughout the swing action" with respect to playing golf with an intact LAFW/FLW that I am only referring to the P4-P7.2+ zone. I have repeatedly stated many, many times that it is very likely that the left wrist will bend at some time point between P7.2 and P8 in most skilled golfers, and it is very rare to see a golfer maintain an intact LAFW/FLW beyond P7.5. I estimate that I have stated that fact at least 20+ times in the past 3 - 6 months.
You are obviously not paying enough attention to the actual content my posts.
Jeff.
|
|