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Post by dubiousgolfer on Sept 19, 2019 6:40:04 GMT -5
Dr Mann
What's your opinion about this AMG video?
I'm unsure whether we can trust anything that is shown in GEARS regarding the cupping and bowing of the left wrist as I think you've shown examples (ie. Jamie Sadlowski video frames vs Gears images) proving that GEARS is not representing reality (ie. using smoothing out algorithms).
But what about this theory they have suggested regarding LEFT ARM ADDUCTION angles somehow being related to LAG?
I don't understand what Mike Granato is saying about that 'Lead Arm Adduction' angle at address . Although he says this is 'not an important number' how can shorter arms or wider shoulders effect that angle (doesn't make sense).
At about 9:02 he shows the AM at P4 having adducted his left arm more across the chest than the Pro. But isn't the reason for that difference caused by the flatter left arm plane that the Pro takes to the top of the backswing (ie. the Pros upper left arm is being adducted against the thicker chest area)? Am I correct in assuming that the AM can get his left upper arm closer to his right shoulder up that steeper plane because it's not being obstructed as much by the upper ribcage?
Isn't the reason why the AM has released PA2# earlier than the PRO by P6 due to the fact that the PRO has created a more optimal hand path using 'right arm adduction/right shoulder downplane/right lateral side bend/pitch elbow' plus a more downward PA4# component (that gets his hands lower and closer to his right thigh as he 'turns the corner' )?
Hasn't AMG failed to consider all the possible biomechanical factors regarding cause and effect for the optimal release of PA2#?
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 19, 2019 10:05:34 GMT -5
Dr Mann What's your opinion about this AMG video? I'm unsure whether we can trust anything that is shown in GEARS regarding the cupping and bowing of the left wrist as I think you've shown examples (ie. Jamie Sadlowski video frames vs Gears images) proving that GEARS is not representing reality (ie. using smoothing out algorithms). But what about this theory they have suggested regarding LEFT ARM ADDUCTION angles somehow being related to LAG? I don't understand what Mike Granato is saying about that 'Lead Arm Adduction' angle at address . Although he says this is 'not an important number' how can shorter arms or wider shoulders effect that angle (doesn't make sense). At about 9:02 he shows the AM at P4 having adducted his left arm more across the chest than the Pro. But isn't the reason for that difference caused by the flatter left arm plane that the Pro takes to the top of the backswing (ie. the Pros upper left arm is being adducted against the thicker chest area)? Am I correct in assuming that the AM can get his left upper arm closer to his right shoulder up that steeper plane because it's not being obstructed as much by the upper ribcage? Isn't the reason why the AM has released PA2# earlier than the PRO by P6 due to the fact that the PRO has created a more optimal hand path using 'right arm adduction/right shoulder downplane/right lateral side bend/pitch elbow' plus a more downward PA4# component (that gets his hands lower and closer to his right thigh as he 'turns the corner' )? Hasn't AMG failed to consider all the possible biomechanical factors regarding cause and effect for the optimal release of PA2#? DG This is one of most wrongheaded AMG videos that I have ever viewed and Granato's logic is highly flawed. His first argument is that the degree of clubface closure (relative to the clubhead arc) between P4 and P6 correlates with an ability to hold a greater degree of lag. That makes no sense to me because lag is measured in the plane of left wrist radial => ulnar deviation which is parallel to the swingplane during the early-mid downswing and if a golfer bows/cups his left wrist between P4 and P6 it is happening perpendicular to the swingplane and I cannot understand why it should affect the degree of retained lag at P6. Granato wrongly claims that amateurs are making the mistake of having a too open clubface during their early-mid downswing as a result of cupping their lead wrist. I personally prefer that a golfer maintain an intact LAFW/GFLW, or a bowed left wrist, between P4 and P6, but it is certainly acceptable for a golfer to have a cupped left wrist during the early-mid downswing as long as he converts to having a GFLW or bowed left wrist after P6. Didn't the world's greatest golfer - Ben Hogan - manifest that pattern? Here is an animated gif showing Ben Hogan, who had a large degree of lag at P5.5, convert from having a cupped lead wrist at P5.5 to having a bowed lead wrist after P6.
Note that Hogan can maintain a large degree of lag at P5.5 despite having a markedly cupped left wrist. Another point that Granato makes is that the pro golfer in his video has his hands at the level of his right thigh at P6, while the amateur golfer has his hands outside his right thigh at P6 - and he thinks that it due to the different degree of lead arm adduction existing at P4. I disagree! Look again at this animated gif of Ben Hogan and note how his hands move from being well outside his right thigh at P5.5 to being in front of his right thigh at P6. What causes his hands to to move so efficiently targetwards between P5.5 and P6? I think that it biomechanically due to the fact that Hogan efficiently adducted his right arm, while using a pitch elbow motion, between P4 and P5.5 so that his right elbow is well positioned in front of his right hip area by P5.5, while he simultaneously acquires a lot of right lateral bend that drops his right shoulder far below the level of his left shoulder by P5.5.
Now, look at these capture images of the amateur golfer in the AMG video.
Compared to Ben Hogan - note that the amateur golfer (on the right) has not adducted his right upper arm closer to the right side of his torso, and that his right elbow is far from his right hip area as result of using a punch elbow motion, and that his right shoulder is high due to a lack of right lateral bend.
It may be true that some amateur golfers have more lead arm adduction at P4 than pro golfers, but the plane of lead arm adduction => abduction is roughly at right angles to the downward plane of motion of the hands between P4 and P5.5 and the hands are mainly moving downwards between P4 and P5.5 and the efficiency of getting the hands down to below waist level by P.5 will not be significantly affected by the degree of lead arm abduction happening during that time period. Here are capture images of Dustin Johnson at P4 and P5.5.
Image 1 is at P4 and image 3 is at P5.5. Note that his hands are not closer to the target at P5.5 than they were at P4, which suggests that there has been very little left arm motion happening in the plane of left arm adduction => abduction between P4 and P5.5 - but note how much his hands have moved groundwards between P4 and P5.5. Note the marked degree of efficiency of Dustin Johnson's i) right arm adduction maneuver, ii) his pitch elbow motion of his right elbow that gets his right elbow in front of his right hip area by P5.5 and iii) his large degree of right lateral bend. Those 3 biomechanical features are very conducive to retaining a large degree of lag at P5.5.
Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Sept 19, 2019 17:06:58 GMT -5
Many thanks Dr Mann - I would have posted a link to your analysis in their You-Tube comments section (but they delete them).
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 19, 2019 19:15:15 GMT -5
Many thanks Dr Mann - I would have posted a link to your analysis in their You-Tube comments section (but they delete them). DG I am sure that they would delete any link to this thread. Look at the quality of the comments in their comment section and you can obviously note that their subscribers are biomechanically and TGM unsophisticated golfers.
Yet they are probably making tons of money (like Mike Malaska)! Look at their latest video.
They want golfers to "sling the arms/club passed the body" - and they want the forearms to roll-over through impact. Stop the video at the 7:36 minute time point demonstrating a hand-crossover hand release action. Granato then states that you have to be "reckless".
Phew! What more can I say!
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 21, 2019 11:02:06 GMT -5
Granato claims in that video that pro golfers only adduct their left arm by ~18 degrees in their backswing action. Check this instagram video of Kyle Berkshire - 2019 world long-drive champion.
Here are capture images of his driver swing action.
Note how much he has adducted his left arm at his end-backswing position (image 1).
Note that he does not "sling his arms/club" across the front of his body during his late downswing and allow his forearms, and therefore clubface, to roll-over through impact. Look at how he keeps his clubface stable, and non-rolled, well after impact (image 5).
Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Sept 22, 2019 6:28:22 GMT -5
Dr Mann When I look at DJ's downswing image below , how does he keep his upper swing centre stabilised with that degree of lateral side bend? To keep it centred in space while also having such a degree of lateral side bend , wouldn't he have to shift his pelvis targetwards? So isn't the biomechanics involved with achieving that straighter (less curvilinear) hand path from P4-P5.5 while keeping his upper centre stable as follows (all happening virtually at the same time but more specifically from ground up)? 1. Pelvic shift/rotate. 2. His large degree of right lateral bend. 3. Right arm adduction maneuver (while right shoulder moving down plane due to active pivot) 4. His pitch elbow motion of his right elbow that gets his right elbow in front of his right hip area by P5.5 DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 22, 2019 7:52:10 GMT -5
Dr Mann When I look at DJ's downswing image below , how does he keep his upper swing centre stabilised with that degree of lateral side bend? To keep it centred in space while also having such a degree of lateral side bend , wouldn't he have to shift his pelvis targetwards? So isn't the biomechanics involved with achieving that straighter (less curvilinear) hand path from P4-P5.5 while keeping his upper centre stable as follows (all happening virtually at the same time but more specifically from ground up)? 1. Pelvic shift/rotate. 2. His large degree of right lateral bend. 3. Right arm adduction maneuver (while right shoulder moving down plane due to active pivot) 4. His pitch elbow motion of his right elbow that gets his right elbow in front of his right hip area by P5.5 DG I don't think that DJ keeps his upper swing center stabilised in his downswing. I think that pro golfers, who develop a lot of right lateral bend, often have their upper swing center move slightly further away from the target during their downswing action. That will cause their low point of their clubhead arc (which is primarily determined by the locus point of their left shoulder socket at impact) move slightly backwards by 1-3", which is not a problem because they can adjust their ball position to accomodate that fact if they want to still have a negative clubhead attack angle with their driver, or they may keep the ball positioned more forward if they want to have a more positive clubhead attack angle at impact. Look at these capture images of Cameron Champ. Note how much his head and upper swing center moves downwards-and-backwards during his downswing. Note that his left shoulder socket is vertically above a point on the ground that is roughly 2" inside his left heel at impact, and that he places his ball at that spot because he prefers to have a slightly negative clubhead attack angle at impact.
Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Sept 22, 2019 8:28:04 GMT -5
Many thanks again Dr Mann
DG
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Post by utahgolfer on Sept 22, 2019 23:42:18 GMT -5
Jeff,
Thank you this insightful discussion.
However, can you explain the left arm abduction and right arm adduction motion a bit more. I can see the pivot energizing the left arm via movement at the left shoulder socket through PA#4. But, from p4 to p5.5 there is no independent movement of the left humerus. Isn't the left humerus simply following the rotation of the left side torso? We would say the left arm is abducting, but nothing would move unless the left torso was rotating. So, isn't the key to initial left arm motion and #4 power accumulation between p4 and p5.5 derived from the pivot, and not independent left arm abduction?
On the right side, I can see that the right humerus is more free to move independently, but how much of the rearward and vertical drop of the hand arc path is due to right torso rotation (shoulder turn) and how much is due to independent right humerus adduction and the pitched right elbow?
Isn't the key to right humerus adduction in the fact that it angles the right forearm farther from the target, as per the pitched elbow, to promote less horizontal motion, and more rearward and vertical drop. It seems that the keys to the rearward and vertical drop of the hand arc path would be the initial rearward and downward motion of the right shoulder turn, the pitched right elbow that angles the right forearm rearwards, right lateral bend, and secondary axis tilt.
We talk about the hand arc path, but I'm wondering how the right shoulder arc path would compare. It seems that plotting and super imposing the right shoulder arc path over the hand arc path might show the value of the independent motion of the pitched right elbow, and illuminate the role of each in vertical drop. Would this be of benefit?
It would also be nice to plot and measure or estimate how much right lateral bend and secondary axis tilt adds to the rearward and downward motion of the initial right shoulder turn, and again illuminate how each factor contributes to an optimal hand arc path.
Again, thanks for this educational forum.
utahgolfer - Jim
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 23, 2019 9:42:41 GMT -5
UG, You asked-: " Isn't the left humerus simply following the rotation of the left side torso? We would say the left arm is abducting, but nothing would move unless the left torso was rotating. So, isn't the key to initial left arm motion and #4 power accumulation between p4 and p5.5 derived from the pivot, and not independent left arm abduction?" First of all, it is possible to move the left arm a lot downwards between P4 and P5 even if the left shoulder socket is not moving a lot targetwards and pulling the left humeral head forwards - look at Sergio Garcia's swing as an example.
Image 1 is at P4 and image 2 is at P5. Although you cannot see his left shoulder socket from this back-viewing perspective, one can surmise that it has moved very little (~ few inches) targetwards, and although it is pulling the left humeral head along with it that doesn't mean that the left arm is moving outwards away from the chest wall in the plane of adduction => abduction. In fact, there is very little left arm abduction happening all the way to P5.5 (image 3) even though the left shoulder socket is pulling the left humeral head along with it as it moves relatively horizontally in a targetwards direction. During the P4 => P5.5 time period the hands are mainly moving downwards secondary to an active right arm adduction maneuver.
Here is face-on image of SG at P5.5. You can clearly see that his left arm has not moved outwards away from his chest wall between P4 and P5.5. The outward movement of the left hand towards the ball between P4 and P5.5 is due to the counterclockwise rotation of the torso, and not due to left arm abduction. SG's hands remain roughly parallel to the ball-target line between P5.5 and impact and left arm abduction must be happening during that time period to counter the "effect" of the left shoulder socket moving further away from the ball-target line during the late downswing. In other words, left arm abduction mainly happens in the later downswing and not the early downswing. You wrote-: "On the right side, I can see that the right humerus is more free to move independently, but how much of the rearward and vertical drop of the hand arc path is due to right torso rotation (shoulder turn) and how much is due to independent right humerus adduction and the pitched right elbow?
Isn't the key to right humerus adduction in the fact that it angles the right forearm farther from the target, as per the pitched elbow, to promote less horizontal motion, and more rearward and vertical drop. It seems that the keys to the rearward and vertical drop of the hand arc path would be the initial rearward and downward motion of the right shoulder turn, the pitched right elbow that angles the right forearm rearwards, right lateral bend, and secondary axis tilt." Look at the back-view images of SG's golf swing. Note that his right shoulder socket drops groundwards by only a few inches between P4 and P5.5, but his right elbow drops groundwards by ~15" - so it is the right arm adduction maneuver that is mainly responsible for the downwards motion of the hands between P4 and P5.5. Tracing the path of motion of the right shoulder socket would not help us to better understand this scenario. The movement of the hands away from the target between P4 and P5.5 is about equally due to the pitch elbow motion of the right elbow and due to the fact that the right shoulder socket has moved away from the target during that time period secondary to the counterclockwise rotation of the upper torso. You wrote-: "It would also be nice to plot and measure or estimate how much right lateral bend and secondary axis tilt adds to the rearward and downward motion of the initial right shoulder turn, and again illuminate how each factor contributes to an optimal hand arc path." I don't think that right lateral bend plays a significant role during the early-mid downswing in creating the downward hand arc path - look at how little right lateral bend SG has between P4 and P5.5 in those back-view capture images. His right scapula has moved away from its very retracted position and his right clavicle has become more depressed, but note that his thoracic spine has acquired very little right lateral bend. Right lateral bend plays a much important role between P5.5 and impact - as seen in the following capture images of Cameron Champ.
Note that Cameron Champ has only a small degree of right lateral bend at P5.5 (image 2), but much more at impact (image 3). That allows his right shoulder socket to move downwards-and-forwards between P5.5 and impact thereby avoiding a "running-out-of-right arm" scenario. Note that he can maintain a very bent right elbow and very dosiflexed right wrist at impact. Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Sept 23, 2019 10:16:55 GMT -5
Dr Mann
So is SG categorised as a 'Right Arm Swinger' if from P4-P5 he is using more right arm adduction than active pivot to release PA4# ?
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 23, 2019 13:19:23 GMT -5
Dr Mann So is SG categorised as a 'Right Arm Swinger' if from P4-P5 he is using more right arm adduction than active pivot to release PA4# ? DG No - I think that SG is a TGM/left arm swinger. I think that the motion of the left shoulder socket targetwards between P4 and P5 (secondary to the active pivot action) pulls the left arm downwards and its downward pulling action is assisted by the active contraction of the left shoulder girdle muscles. I think that the right arm's adductory motion (due to the active contraction of the right shoulder girdle muscles eg. latissimus dorsi) plays a secondary/synergistic role by assisting in the downward component of the release of PA#4. In a right arm swinger, most of the swing power is derived from the contraction of the right-sided shoulder girdle muscles. Jeff.
p.s. I shouldn't have used the word "mainly" in this sentence from my previous post - "During the P4 => P5.5 time period the hands are mainly moving downwards secondary to an active right arm adduction maneuver" - because it implies that the power to move the left arm downwards is derived from the active muscular contraction of right-sided shoulder girdle muscles. However, although it is a right-sided maneuver from a directorial perspective, the swing power to move the left arm is mainly derived from the pivot action + contraction of the left shoulder muscles.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Sept 23, 2019 16:16:01 GMT -5
Many thanks Dr Mann
DG
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