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Post by dubiousgolfer on Jan 26, 2020 21:33:38 GMT -5
Dr Mann I still have a slight issue understanding how a non-neutral grip can still have an intact LAFW For example , do all these images below show an intact LAFW with a GFLW for the varying grip strengths? I am assuming that in all the images the clubface is square to the target line. I can understand image 2 (neutral grip) with an intact GFLW/Intact LAFW whatever the gripping pattern in the below image but images 1 and 3 do not make sense, especially if the golfer is using a 'low palmar grip pattern' (red line in image below ) or 'finger grip pattern' (green line in below image). Example 1: Image 1 (weak 1 knuckle grip) If the golfer grips using mid-palmar grip pattern (blue line) won't the clubshaft be slightly angulated towards the target at address? And won't it become even more angulated towards target if he gripped using 'low palmar' and 'finger grip' pattern? Example 2: Image 3 ( very strong 4 knuckle grip) If the golfer grips using mid-palmar grip pattern (blue line) won't the clubshaft be slightly angulated away from the target at address ? And won't it become even more angulated away from target if he gripped using 'low palmar' and 'finger grip' pattern? Yet your above images 1 and 3 show the shaft perfectly in line with the left arm DG
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Jan 27, 2020 10:38:30 GMT -5
Dr Mann
Wouldn't it make more sense 'for a non-neutral grip with GFLW' , that a golfer should be attempting to keep an intact LFFW?
DG
PS. I suppose one could say that 'for a non-neutral grip with GFLW' , that a golfer can be seen to be having an intact LAFW but only if being viewed in the plane of the 'back of the left forearm' (hope that makes sense).
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 29, 2020 11:37:46 GMT -5
Dr Mann I still have a slight issue understanding how a non-neutral grip can still have an intact LAFW For example , do all these images below show an intact LAFW with a GFLW for the varying grip strengths? I am assuming that in all the images the clubface is square to the target line. I can understand image 2 (neutral grip) with an intact GFLW/Intact LAFW whatever the gripping pattern in the below image but images 1 and 3 do not make sense, especially if the golfer is using a 'low palmar grip pattern' (red line in image below ) or 'finger grip pattern' (green line in below image). Example 1: Image 1 (weak 1 knuckle grip) If the golfer grips using mid-palmar grip pattern (blue line) won't the clubshaft be slightly angulated towards the target at address? And won't it become even more angulated towards target if he gripped using 'low palmar' and 'finger grip' pattern? Example 2: Image 3 ( very strong 4 knuckle grip) If the golfer grips using mid-palmar grip pattern (blue line) won't the clubshaft be slightly angulated away from the target at address ? And won't it become even more angulated away from target if he gripped using 'low palmar' and 'finger grip' pattern? Yet your above images 1 and 3 show the shaft perfectly in line with the left arm DG DG, Good questions! My thinking on the intact LAFW concept has evolved since I produced that image showing an imaginary clubshaft straight-in-line with the left arm - supposedly representing an intact LAFW. At present, I think that the intact LAFW/GFLW concept only usefully applies to a golfer who adopts a neutral-or-weak left hand grip and that it does not apply if the golfer adopts a very strong left hand grip. If a golfer adopts a neutral-weak left hand grip, then the intact LAFW/GFLW concept is very useful because it allows a golfer to avoid wobbly left wrists during the late downswing when PA#3 is released, and it also allows a golfer to efficiently perform a DH-hand release action through impact to P7.2+ and thereby avoid a flip-or-rolling problem. You asked-: "Example 1: Image 1 (weak 1 knuckle grip). If the golfer grips using mid-palmar grip pattern (blue line) won't the clubshaft be slightly angulated towards the target at address? And won't it become even more angulated towards target if he gripped using 'low palmar' and 'finger grip' pattern?" No.
Changing from a mid-palmar => low palmar => finger grip only varies the accumulator #3 in the plane of radial => ulnar deviation and it does not disrupt an intact LAFW alignment if a golfer adopts a neutral-weak left hand grip (presuming that the intact LAFW is perpendicular to the swingplane). I now think that the intact LFFW/LAFW concept has no useful value if a golfer adopts a very strong left hand grip. At address, the left palm (and back of the left hand) are parallel to the swingplane, and not perpendicular to the swingplane. Also, it would therefore naturally cause forward shaft lean if the left wrist is neutral in the plane of radial => ulnar deviation, with the degree of forward shaft lean becoming greater as one moves from a midpalmar => low palmar => finger grip pattern. The only way to get the clubshaft to become straight-line-aligned with the left arm at address (as depicted in that image) would be to ulnar-deviate the left wrist. When I produced my video project series of 7-videos, I suggested that it is better to think of the LAFW lying parallel to the swingplane at address if the golfer adopts a very strong left hand grip, which means that the clubshaft would be straight-line-aligned with the left arm as perceived from a DTL viewing perspective (where one views the scenario from a viewing angle that is parallel to the swingplane). That "LAFW modification" alignment suggestion has some utility if the golfer keeps the same degree of left wrist dorsiflexion throughout the downswing - as seen in Jamie Sadlowski's golf swing action. Note that JS has his left radial bone approximately inline with his left antecubital fossa throughout his downswing and that he also has his clubshaft more-or-less inline with his left arm/forearm between P4 and impact.
However, that "intact LAFW modification" alignment (where one thinks of the intact LAFW lying parallel to the swingplane throughout the downswing and early followthrough) would only apply if the i) golfer did not shallow the clubshaft to below the TSP during the downswing and if the ii) golfer comes into impact with an outstretched left arm and a iii) very small accumulator #3 angle. The "real life" reality is that some pro golfers (who adopt a very strong left hand grip) shallow the clubshaft during the early-mid downswing and come into impact with a more vertical left arm and a larger accumulator #3 angle (due to increased left wrist dorsiflexion that is combined with a more vertical left arm) and that means that an "intact LAFW modification" alignment would not exist in their downswing action.
Another problem with the modified definition of an intact LAFW (where the intact LAFW is perceived to be continuously parallel to the swingplane) is the fact that maintaining an "intact LAFW modification" alignment would not prevent flipping through impact because flipping would be caused by excessive left wrist ulnar deviation (which does not disrupt an intact LAFW that is aligned parallel to the swingplane). I therefore now question the utility of the intact LAFW concept in a golfers who adopt a very strong left hand grip, and I do not think that it has practical value. Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Jan 29, 2020 11:58:05 GMT -5
Many thanks Dr Mann
DG
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Feb 17, 2020 9:17:34 GMT -5
Dr Mann
Do you have some names of the pros who do the below? Just like to see some videos of their swings if on the web. Is Daniel Berger one of those pros?
"The "real life" reality is that some pro golfers (who adopt a very strong left hand grip) shallow the clubshaft during the early-mid downswing and come into impact with a more vertical left arm and a larger accumulator #3 angle (due to increased left wrist dorsiflexion that is combined with a more vertical left arm) and that means that an "intact LAFW modification" alignment would not exist in their downswing action."
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 17, 2020 10:51:34 GMT -5
Dr Mann Do you have some names of the pros who do the below? Just like to see some videos of their swings if on the web. Is Daniel Berger one of those pros? "The "real life" reality is that some pro golfers (who adopt a very strong left hand grip) shallow the clubshaft during the early-mid downswing and come into impact with a more vertical left arm and a larger accumulator #3 angle (due to increased left wrist dorsiflexion that is combined with a more vertical left arm) and that means that an "intact LAFW modification" alignment would not exist in their downswing action." DG Daniel Berger is an example of a pro golfer, who adopts a very strong left hand grip, and who shallows the clubshaft between P4 and P5.5, and who then comes into impact with a more vertical left arm and a moderate-sized accumulator #3 angle. Here are capture images of DB's downswing. Another very good example would be Hunter Mahan. Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Feb 17, 2020 11:19:31 GMT -5
Many thanks Dr Mann
Strange that when I login now all those images disappear from your recent posts . I can only see them if I logout.
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 17, 2020 12:39:05 GMT -5
Many thanks Dr Mann Strange that when I login now all those images disappear from your recent posts . I can only see them if I logout. DG I have also experienced images that disappear when I an logged-in, but it doesn't involve this thread, but another thread. I do not know why it is happening. Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Sept 16, 2023 5:16:19 GMT -5
Dr Mann
In a previous post in this thread you mentioned Daniel Berger (and Hunter Mahan) doing the below: "Daniel Berger is an example of a pro golfer, who adopts a very strong left hand grip, and who shallows the clubshaft between P4 and P5.5, and who then comes into impact with a more vertical left arm and a moderate-sized accumulator #3 angle."
You also said: "The "real life" reality is that some pro golfers (who adopt a very strong left hand grip) shallow the clubshaft during the early-mid downswing and come into impact with a more vertical left arm and a larger accumulator #3 angle (due to increased left wrist dorsiflexion that is combined with a more vertical left arm) and that means that an "intact LAFW modification" alignment would not exist in their downswing action."
If they have increased their left wrist dorsiflexion, doesn't this also mean they cannot be using an intact GFLW/LFFW technique?
Shouldn't a golfer with a very strong grip who uses an intact GFLW/LFFW have virtually zero PA#3 angle at P7 (like Jamie Sadlowski)?
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 16, 2023 9:23:08 GMT -5
Dr Mann In a previous post in this thread you mentioned Daniel Berger (and Hunter Mahan) doing the below: "Daniel Berger is an example of a pro golfer, who adopts a very strong left hand grip, and who shallows the clubshaft between P4 and P5.5, and who then comes into impact with a more vertical left arm and a moderate-sized accumulator #3 angle."You also said: "The "real life" reality is that some pro golfers (who adopt a very strong left hand grip) shallow the clubshaft during the early-mid downswing and come into impact with a more vertical left arm and a larger accumulator #3 angle (due to increased left wrist dorsiflexion that is combined with a more vertical left arm) and that means that an "intact LAFW modification" alignment would not exist in their downswing action."If they have increased their left wrist dorsiflexion, doesn't this also mean they cannot be using an intact GFLW/LFFW technique? Shouldn't a golfer with a very strong grip who uses an intact GFLW/LFFW have virtually zero PA#3 angle at P7 (like Jamie Sadlowski)? DG You have again forgotten my opinion that the LFFW concept does not apply to a golfer who uses a very strong lead hand grip. Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Sept 16, 2023 10:06:14 GMT -5
Dr Mann In a previous post in this thread you mentioned Daniel Berger (and Hunter Mahan) doing the below: "Daniel Berger is an example of a pro golfer, who adopts a very strong left hand grip, and who shallows the clubshaft between P4 and P5.5, and who then comes into impact with a more vertical left arm and a moderate-sized accumulator #3 angle."You also said: "The "real life" reality is that some pro golfers (who adopt a very strong left hand grip) shallow the clubshaft during the early-mid downswing and come into impact with a more vertical left arm and a larger accumulator #3 angle (due to increased left wrist dorsiflexion that is combined with a more vertical left arm) and that means that an "intact LAFW modification" alignment would not exist in their downswing action."If they have increased their left wrist dorsiflexion, doesn't this also mean they cannot be using an intact GFLW/LFFW technique? Shouldn't a golfer with a very strong grip who uses an intact GFLW/LFFW have virtually zero PA#3 angle at P7 (like Jamie Sadlowski)? DG You have again forgotten my opinion that the LFFW concept does not apply to a golfer who uses a very strong lead hand grip. Jeff. No, you are mistaken as I re-read that thread before I posted the above question. That was related to an intact LAFW not LFFW. Also, isn't Jamie Sadlowski using a very strong grip but has an intact GFLW/LFFW? DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 16, 2023 10:13:00 GMT -5
You have again forgotten my opinion that the LFFW concept does not apply to a golfer who uses a very strong lead hand grip. Jeff. No, you are mistaken as I re-read that thread before I posted the above question. That was related to an intact LAFW not LFFW. Also, isn't Jamie Sadlowski using a very strong grip but has an intact GFLW/LFFW? DG I cannot understand how a golfer who uses a very strong lead hand grip - like Milo and Jamie - can be using the intact LFFW technique. Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Sept 16, 2023 10:42:12 GMT -5
No, you are mistaken as I re-read that thread before I posted the above question. That was related to an intact LAFW not LFFW. Also, isn't Jamie Sadlowski using a very strong grip but has an intact GFLW/LFFW? DG I cannot understand how a golfer who uses a very strong lead hand grip - like Milo and Jamie - can be using the intact LFFW technique. Jeff. I cannot understand why this isn't possible. That paper wedge you used in your videos for an intact LFFW can still work for a very strong grip as long as the GFLW is intact during the downswing. Obviously , as lead wrist ulnar deviation happens , the wedge angle will get larger but couldn't it still be intact at P7 (even if theoretically, the back of the lead wrist was parallel to the ball target line). DG
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Sept 16, 2023 10:59:19 GMT -5
This is the intact LFFW that I am visualising for JS where the wedge is within the functional swing plane. DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 16, 2023 12:26:43 GMT -5
I cannot understand how a golfer who uses a very strong lead hand grip - like Milo and Jamie - can be using the intact LFFW technique. Jeff. I cannot understand why this isn't possible. That paper wedge you used in your videos for an intact LFFW can still work for a very strong grip as long as the GFLW is intact during the downswing. Obviously , as lead wrist ulnar deviation happens , the wedge angle will get larger but couldn't it still be intact at P7 (even if theoretically, the back of the lead wrist was parallel to the ball target line). DG Nice drawing! However, that red angled wedge cannot be a LFFW wedge, which has to be in-plane with the lead lower forearm's lower radial bone at every moment between P4 => P7. In image 2, the lead lower forearm's lower radial bone is roughly parallel to the functional swingplane while your wedge is angled about 60 degrees relative to the functional swingplane.
Your wedge angle in image 2 better reflects the accumulator #3 angle that will exist at impact, which is dependent on the lead arm angle at impact and the degree of lead wrist extension that exists at impact.
Jeff.
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