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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 28, 2022 11:51:38 GMT -5
My first question - what is the real purpose of posting your experience with a MA-lesson? What should we learn from your experience? Is there a particular message that you are specifically trying to communicate? I only discovered this forum a couple of weeks ago. I have been going through it extensively and like the information being shared. Since I have a first hand experience with a topic that seems to have been a pretty lively following, I thought I would share my information. I was not trying to bash anything, not trying to try to tell anyone to stay away from these teachings. I was just hoping to share my experiences and give some of my results. No hidden agenda at all. My message was nothing but an experience that I thought I would share since this topic generated a lot of discussion. Do you have any video of your MA-lesson or your post-lesson full golf swing action when you were plagued by pull-hooks and "getting stuck"? I do not have any videos. I really wish I did. Do you have any videos of your driver golf swing before you visited MA, and do you have any videos of your present-day driver swing? I do not. Since my short time working on what I learned, I am back to my "old" swing. Swing Like a Pro thoughts mixed with what I have learned. How are you swinging now, and which golf instructional concepts are you specifically following at the present time? See above. I apologize if I came off in any way you do not appreciate. I just saw a lot of information in this thread and I respect your opinions and thoughts. I wanted to share my experience. I thought maybe my first hand experience would generate some more discussion if anyone was interested. I do not have any negative opinions regarding your post re: your MA-lesson, and I am simply trying to understand what we can learn from your personal experience. In the absence of videos, I can only surmise that you were plagued by pull-hooks because MA advised you to swing "out-to-in" into impact, which is golf instructional advise that I strongly oppose. If your trail hand had a tendency to lose contact with the club handle through impact, that fact would not surprise me because MA's teaching for a side-cover (or on-top) golfer will predispose to a "running-out-of-right arm "scenario.
I am strongly opposed to the golf instructional ideas of MA/TR because I think that they are irrational.
Jeff.
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Post by studentofthegame on Feb 28, 2022 12:18:44 GMT -5
My first question - what is the real purpose of posting your experience with a MA-lesson? What should we learn from your experience? Is there a particular message that you are specifically trying to communicate? I only discovered this forum a couple of weeks ago. I have been going through it extensively and like the information being shared. Since I have a first hand experience with a topic that seems to have been a pretty lively following, I thought I would share my information. I was not trying to bash anything, not trying to try to tell anyone to stay away from these teachings. I was just hoping to share my experiences and give some of my results. No hidden agenda at all. My message was nothing but an experience that I thought I would share since this topic generated a lot of discussion. Do you have any video of your MA-lesson or your post-lesson full golf swing action when you were plagued by pull-hooks and "getting stuck"? I do not have any videos. I really wish I did. Do you have any videos of your driver golf swing before you visited MA, and do you have any videos of your present-day driver swing? I do not. Since my short time working on what I learned, I am back to my "old" swing. Swing Like a Pro thoughts mixed with what I have learned. How are you swinging now, and which golf instructional concepts are you specifically following at the present time? See above. I apologize if I came off in any way you do not appreciate. I just saw a lot of information in this thread and I respect your opinions and thoughts. I wanted to share my experience. I thought maybe my first hand experience would generate some more discussion if anyone was interested. I do not have any negative opinions regarding your post re: your MA-lesson, and I am simply trying to understand what we can learn from your personal experience. In the absence of videos, I can only surmise that you were plagued by pull-hooks because MA advised you to swing "out-to-in" into impact, which is golf instructional advise that I strongly oppose. If your trail hand had a tendency to lose contact with the club handle through impact, that fact would not surprise me because MA's teaching for a side-cover (or on-top) golfer will predispose to a "running-out-of-right arm "scenario.
I am strongly opposed to the golf instructional ideas of MA/TR because I think that they are irrational.
Jeff.
Thank you for the reply Dr Mann. It seems as if I am learning something it’s your response. I to agree with your strong opposition with the out to in swing path. I think that in my conscious attempt to not to swing out to in knowing it is incorrect, when I would try to swing my around myself and find the inside path, that would be when I would get stuck. I was never really able to understand why. And like I said earlier, I was never plagued with getting stuck in my golf swing, even as a beginner. But you bring up a topic that is very important and I think has a lot to do with my personal experience. I should have brought this up in my initial post. The “running out of right arm” scenario is very real in MA and TR teaching in the case of side cover and on top golfers. They surmise that those types of golfers will extend their right arm very early in the downswing in order to fully release the club. I distinctly remember during my lessons that I could never fully release the club too soon from the top. In my opinion, this is a direct opposition to good golf instruction. During the lesson, it was apparent that releasing the club as early as possible was very important for me. However, upon trying to actually release the club when I was practicing and playing, I felt it brought a certain timing element into the swing that I never felt I had needed in the past, plus compromised quality of strike. And I think another thing I found really poor teaching was MA’s thoughts on the transition. He believes that if you are setup properly for your swing via your measurements, then technically there is no transition in the golf swing because everything will fall into place naturally. I too agree their teaching is irrational.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on May 10, 2023 12:19:20 GMT -5
Here is another video with Mike Adams which I found quite confusing (especially from 4:45- 6:16) where he seems to suggest that the trail hand grip will change the flaring in and out of the elbow. That makes no sense to me at all because I can supinate and pronate my trail forearm without the need to move my elbow.
I'll be looking at this video several times because there are some other statements which I found difficult to comprehend.
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on May 11, 2023 10:03:05 GMT -5
Here is another video with Mike Adams which I found quite confusing (especially from 4:45- 6:16) where he seems to suggest that the trail hand grip will change the flaring in and out of the elbow. That makes no sense to me at all because I can supinate and pronate my trail forearm without the need to move my elbow. I'll be looking at this video several times because there are some other statements which I found difficult to comprehend. DG A weak trail hand grip predisposes to a lawnmower move takeaway and a punch elbow motion in the downswing, while a strong trail hand grip predisposes to a RFT takeaway and a pitch elbow motion in the downswing. However, I disagree with MA that the trail arm/hand control the clubface. I have discussed this issue in great depth in this thread. Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on May 11, 2023 18:21:05 GMT -5
Dr Mann
Yes, I think your analysis in this thread is excellent and probably covers any questions I may have about that video.
DG
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Post by dubiousgolfer on May 27, 2023 7:32:03 GMT -5
I've found a you-tube video producing slides that summarise Mike Adams theories.
Might make it easier to be able to cross-reference the summarised claims with some of Dr Mann's detailed critical analyses.
DG
PS. I'll check but I'm unsure whether there is an analysis of 'What does grip do to spine tilt in the backswing' ( 09:59 in the you-tube video). I need to also check about 'Openers and Closers' mentioned at 18:39. Also , I don't understand how an open stance makes the left leg lock up later, while a closed stance locks it up earlier. What does he mean by 'locking'? Is it related to the range of motion of the left ankle/knee/hip?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on May 27, 2023 9:42:03 GMT -5
I've found a you-tube video producing slides that summarise Mike Adams theories. Might make it easier to be able to cross-reference the summarised claims with some of Dr Mann's detailed critical analyses. DG PS. I'll check but I'm unsure whether there is an analysis of 'What does grip do to spine tilt in the backswing' ( 09:59 in the you-tube video). I need to also check about 'Openers and Closers' mentioned at 18:39. Also , I don't understand how an open stance makes the left leg lock up later, while a closed stance locks it up earlier. What does he mean my 'locking'? Is it related to the range of motion of the left ankle/knee/hip? You asked-: " Also , I don't understand how an open stance makes the left leg lock up later, while a closed stance locks it up earlier. What does he mean my 'locking'? Is it related to the range of motion of the left ankle/knee/hip?" A closed stance makes it more difficult to push the lead hip joint back towards the tush line and makes it more difficult to rotate the lead femur counterclockwise that can make it easier to continue to rotate the pelvis counterclockwise between P5.5 => P7. Instead the "feel" is of the lead knee "locking up" as it excessively straightens between P5.5 => P7. An open stance has the opposite effect. Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on May 27, 2023 10:39:06 GMT -5
I've found a you-tube video producing slides that summarise Mike Adams theories. Might make it easier to be able to cross-reference the summarised claims with some of Dr Mann's detailed critical analyses. DG PS. I'll check but I'm unsure whether there is an analysis of 'What does grip do to spine tilt in the backswing' ( 09:59 in the you-tube video). I need to also check about 'Openers and Closers' mentioned at 18:39. Also , I don't understand how an open stance makes the left leg lock up later, while a closed stance locks it up earlier. What does he mean my 'locking'? Is it related to the range of motion of the left ankle/knee/hip? You asked-: " Also , I don't understand how an open stance makes the left leg lock up later, while a closed stance locks it up earlier. What does he mean my 'locking'? Is it related to the range of motion of the left ankle/knee/hip?" A closed stance makes it more difficult to push the lead hip joint back towards the tush line and makes it more difficult to rotate the lead femur counterclockwise that can make it easier to continue to rotate the pelvis counterclockwise between P5.5 => P7. Instead the "feel" is of the lead knee "locking up" as it excessively straightens between P5.5 => P7. An open stance has the opposite effect. Jeff. Many thanks Dr Mann - I was mistakenly thinking he was referring to the backswing rather than the downswing. DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on May 27, 2023 10:52:46 GMT -5
I reject many of MA's opinions, and I especially disagree with his opinion that Cameron Champ is a prototypical front-post golfer. According to MA, front post golfers should habitually use a weak trail hand grip, have an early re-centering move at P2/P3 and a straightened trail leg that is angled to the target at P4, use a vertical-centralised or leftwards-centralised upper torso loading pattern, use a punch elbow motion of their trail arm between P4 => P5.5, have an out-to-in clubhead path in the later downswing, have a launcher/jumper pattern of pelvic motion between P5 => P7, have a straightening trail arm/wrist through impact with the trail palm rolling over the club handle (as seen in Patrick Reed's golf swing action) and a followthrough lead arm motion to the inside-left. Here is a swing video of Cameron Champ's golf swing action Here are capture images from the swing video. Image 1 is at address. Note that his trail grip is side-under, and not on top or side-cover. Image 2 is at P3.8 - note that he manifests a rightwards-centralised upper torso loading pattern, note that he keeps his trail knee flexed, note that his pelvis is centralised. Image 3 is at P4. Note that he performed a re-centering move of his pelvis between P3.8 => P4 and he may possibly have a lot of vertical COP measurement under his lead foot at P4. However, he does not have a straightened trail leg or a vertical-leftwards "look" of his upper torso. Also, his trail hip joint is in a state of marked internal rotation and he looks like he is efficiently pre-loading his trail-sided lateral pelvic rotator muscles.
Image 4 is at P4.5 - end of the hip-squaring phase. Note how fast he squared his pelvis, while many pro golfers only get a square pelvis by P5. I strongly suspect that he is efficiently using his trail-sided lateral pelvic rotator muscles to very efficiently start his counterclockwise pelvic rotation (even if a Swing Catalyst device does not measure a lot of rotary torque at the level of his two feet's interaction with the ground). Image 5 is at P5.5. Note that his pelvis is open due to his super-efficient counterclockwise pelvic rotary motion. Note that he uses an active trail upper arm adduction action using a pitch elbow motion of his trail elbow and that combination allows him to retain a lot of clubhead lag at P5.5. Note that his trail palm is well under the club handle at P5.5 and his swing action is "in-to-out" and not "out-to-in".
Image 6 is just after impact. Note that his pelvis is very open due his super-efficient pelvic rotary motion happening throughout his entire downswing action. Note that he is not jumping-up through impact (like Justin James or Justin Thomas) and I would not accept that he is using the launcher pattern of pelvic motion. I think that he is primarily using a rotary torque pattern of pelvic motion. Note that he is using a CF-arm release action, and he is not swinging out-to-in through impact (like a prototypical front post golfer eg. Patrick Reed). Note that he does not straighten his trail arm and pronate his trail forearm through impact and thereby roll his trail hand over the club handle through impact (as seen in Patrick Reed's swing below) Capture images of Patrick Reed's golf swing action. Jeff.
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