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Post by dubiousgolfer on May 11, 2021 8:05:03 GMT -5
Dr Mann
Have you heard about this new research being done by Mike Adams/Terry Rowles about how the grip can change the biomechanics of a golfers swing?
I was looking at some of the comments and answers but this one caught my attention:
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Question: I understand that club delivery parameters have to change in order to finish on target with a different grip. But were specific parameters affected universally? Or did an unpredictable mix of delivery parameter changes that varied player-to-player ? In other words, could your study and methods predict, with accuracy, the specific changes that will occur when you strengthen a grip. Or could it be a number of factors?
Answer by Terry Rowles: predictable -
Pelvis sway
Head movement
Thorax rotation and side bend
Shaft plane / lie at impact
Loft
Swing direction
Attack angle
Contact point
Trail arm extension timing
Rate of closure
Were most obvious and predictable.
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Their research seems to suggest that a slight change in grip can have quite an impact on the overall biomechanics of a golfers swing. I've asked Terry Rowles when he expects to publish the book (which involves Mike Adams) .
DG
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Post by dubiousgolfer on May 11, 2021 8:19:35 GMT -5
Here's another video where he explains his and Phil Cheetham's research in more detail.
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on May 11, 2021 9:36:17 GMT -5
I am very sceptical about Terry's claims. In the first video, he claims that Justin Thomas has a stronger grip, but it looks very weak to me. Also, he claims that golfers who use a weaker grip must release the club earlier. Why? In the second video, he mainly focuses on the trail hand's grip strength and he claims that it affects the way that a pro golfer pushes the club through the late downswing => early followthrough. I am sceptical - based on my belief that most pro golfers supinate their trail forearm and roll their trail wrist clockwise during their right wrist straightening action, and that they do not push the club handle through impact. For example, he claims that Rory McIlroy uses a weak trail hand grip, which means that the trail hand should roll more throughout the late downswing into impact. However, that does not happen in Rory's golf swing action - here is a capture image of Rory Mcilroy at impact. Note that his right forearm is supinated and his right palm is under the club handle. Compare his right hand at impact to its position at address - see the 0:25 minute time point of this video. Note that his right hand is rotated far more clockwise at impact - compared to address. Terry also talks about an "open-face" grip and a closed face" grip. How does one get an open-face at address by altering one's lead hand grip? One would have to roll the lead hand more counterclockwise at address so that it is rotated more counterclockwise than a weak lead hand grip (where the back of the GFLW is straight-line-aligned with the clubface). Which pro golfer uses an "open-face" grip? Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on May 11, 2021 10:57:14 GMT -5
The terminology Terry and Mike Adams use is quite confusing and I'd also like to know how Phil Cheetham defines and measures a strong grip vs weak grip .
Here is a twitter video which I think explains what they mean by 'On Top' and an open face grip.
Found some more videos which might help try and understand their terminology
DG
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Post by dubiousgolfer on May 11, 2021 11:51:23 GMT -5
Here's another longer video with Mike Adams actually going into far more detail and also describing the swing patterns (according to their terminology) of several PGA tour players.
DG
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Post by dubiousgolfer on May 12, 2021 8:12:07 GMT -5
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Post by imperfectgolfer on May 12, 2021 16:37:18 GMT -5
I look forward to reading their forthcoming book, and writing a review paper. Based on some of the statements that they have made, I anticipate that I will agree that factors like wingspan width (relative to torso width and height) will affect the degree of elevation of the left arm during the backswing. I can also see how length of the right forearm relative to the right humerus can affect whether the golfer will likely choose to use a high track versus a mid-track versus a low track hand arc path. However, I am skeptical that measuring the degree of external rotation of the right humerus as a screening tool is useful because I do not believe that pro golfers have to externally rotate the right humerus to successfully shallow the clubshaft if they choose to be come down on a lower track path - and a golfer like Matthew Wolff shallows his clubshaft by moving his right humerus from being internally rotated at P4 to becoming less internally rotated when he shallows his clubshaft and he is not frankly externally rotating his right humerus. My major likely disagreement will relate to the role of the right hand grip in controlling the clubface. From my temporary understanding of what represents an "open faced" versus a "closed face" grip, it is seemingly based on the trail hand's grip and not the lead hand's grip. So, consider this Terry Rowles video. He states that ~13 degrees of rotation of the trail hand relative to the clubface represents a neutral trail hand grip (side-arm). An additional ~7 degrees of clockwise rotation represents an "closed-faced grip (under hand = strong), and a counterclockwise rotation of ~7 degrees (from 13 degrees) represents a "open-faced" grip (on top hand = weak). I don't disagree with his definitions, but I do not believe that a skilled golfer (who uses a TGM swinging action + intact LFFW/GFLW technique) will have to change his lead arm/wrist motion to hit the ball straight if he changes his trail wrist's grip strength. My reasoning is based on my "belief" that the right wrist/hand has to accommodate its orientation to align itself correctly relative to the intact LFFW, and that the motion of the intact LFFW dictates whether a golfer will hit the ball straight. To support my opinion, it is interesting that at the start of the video (between the 0:55 - 1:45 minute time points), Terry hits the ball equally straight when opening/closing the clubface by ~20 degrees without seemingly altering his left hand grip or body/left arm motions. That does not surprise me because he is seemingly using a TGM swinging action and an intact LFFW technique, which is not affected by changes in the strength of the trail hand grip. Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on May 13, 2021 7:05:20 GMT -5
Dr Mann
Yes , your previous post does make sense.
This is a reply I received from Terry Rowles to one of my own comments on his you-tube video.
"Is minimizing ROC a good thing ? Have a study for that? As the data stands I don’t agree that reducing ROC is good for all so that is a flawed starting point. Increasing speed, improving contact, reducing dispersion are all good outcome based targets. "
I was wondering whether PGA driving accuracy stats prove whether DH'ers are in the majority for the top 20 ?
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on May 13, 2021 7:49:14 GMT -5
DG,
Although the use of a DH-hand release action decreases the clubface ROC between P7 => P7.2, there is presently no evidence that it increases ball flight accuracy. It is not easy to scientifically study this issue and the question as to whether DHers are likely to be a greater percentage of the top 20 PGA tour golfers is not an useful question because of the confounding variables of pre-impact factors that may be affecting accuracy and also the major confounding variable of "individual talent" that can enable a pro golfer to overcome sub-optimal golf swing biomechanics.
Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on May 13, 2021 11:55:18 GMT -5
Dr Mann
I found an old template showing the tests/measurements required for these 'Biomechanical Swing Patterns' that I assume were devised by Mike Adams/ EA Tischler/Terry Rowles. But it doesn't mention anything about the trail hand only the lead hand.
Not sure whether you will find it interesting but thought I'd attach it for future reference.
DG
PS. The pdf template is too big to attach as its 1.9mb
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Post by dubiousgolfer on May 15, 2021 11:18:56 GMT -5
Dr Mann
I was reading your 'Downswing' chapter again and wondering whether Mike Adams biomechanical tests for the downswing plane might explain why:
1. Phil Mickelson and Sergio Garcia have different downswing planes and PA#3 angles even though both adopt a weak-neutral grip. 2. Jamie Sadlowksi and Hunter Mahan have different downswing planes and PA#3 angles even though both adopt very strong grips.
Isn't it possible that Sergio Garcia can release PA#3 in a more controlled manner than PM because of their 'forearm vs upper arm' differences? That although PM might theoretically be able to change his downswing plane and create a more controlled PA#3 release like Sergio , it would be biomechanically unnatural for him to do so?
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on May 15, 2021 13:13:54 GMT -5
Dr Mann I was reading your 'Downswing' chapter again and wondering whether Mike Adams biomechanical tests for the downswing plane might explain why: 1. Phil Mickelson and Sergio Garcia have different downswing planes and PA#3 angles even though both adopt a weak-neutral grip. 2. Jamie Sadlowksi and Hunter Mahan have different downswing planes and PA#3 angles even though both adopt very strong grips. Isn't it possible that Sergio Garcia can release PA#3 in a more controlled manner than PM because of their 'forearm vs upper arm' differences? That although PM might theoretically be able to change his downswing plane and create a more controlled PA#3 release like Sergio , it would be biomechanically unnatural for him to do so? DG It is theoretically possible, but I would have to see the exact anatomical measurements and also review a detailed biomechanical explanation as to why those anatomical differences cause the differences in clubshaft plane between P4 => P6. Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on May 16, 2021 10:26:49 GMT -5
What gives legitimacy to TR/MA's ideas on how best to perform a golf swing is this Fred Couples video.
FC is a high track, on-top golfer who releases the club using a non-DH hand release action and he does not use an intact LFFW/GFLW technique or a DH-hand release action - yet he is a superb ball-striker.
The golf swing is enormously complex and there are many methods of performing an efficient golf swing action (eg. Fred Couples and Jim Furyk) that are contrary to the golf instructional principles that I favor.
Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on May 16, 2021 19:17:38 GMT -5
I'm not convinced (yet) about this test (see image below) for backswing plane. That's because I can do all three if I wanted to just like the model golfer is demonstrating. And according to Mike Adams video below, a golfer will need to need to use one of his claimed 'hinge' patterns to match this right wrist movement (on-top , side-on, under). I don't really understand what he means by vertical, diagonal, horizontal hinging unless it's pertinent to the movement of the right wrist in the backswing. example: 1. Vertical Hinge - pure radial deviation of right wrist 2. Horizontal Hinge- pure dorsi-flexion of right wrist. 3. Diagonal Hinge - a mix of 1 and 2 I've also noticed that Mike Adams says that fast hips will open the clubface so one will need a stronger left hand grip but that doesn't make any sense to me all. DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on May 16, 2021 22:14:14 GMT -5
DG, I agree that it is possible to perform all 3 elbow folding motions if one starts with the hands placed where the palms face each other. However, if one adopts an on-top right wrist position (weak right position) at address, one may have an increased tendency to pull the right elbow back (lawnmover move) and if one adopts an under right wrist position (strong right wrist position) one may more likely fan the right forearm (as in a RFT action). Most importantly, if one uses the "lawnmover move" right elbow action as seen in the following Colin Montogomerie video, it will be associated with a high track backswing action that gets the left arm steeper than the shoulder turn angle with a flying right elbow at P4.
However, that does not mean that the downswing action will necessarily be a covering action. I will thoroughly analyse CM's golf swing action in a future post to show what is really happening. Here is a link to EA Tischler's webpage - www.newhorizonsgolf.com/BioSwingDynamics.html - where you can see what is meant by horizontal, diagonal and vertical wrist lever actions. I am presently studying the BioSwingDynamics ideology in great depth and I can already identify a number of weaknesses in their way of thinking. I will analyse their thinking in great detail in a number of posts in the next few weeks. Jeff.
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