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Post by imperfectgolfer on May 23, 2021 10:15:37 GMT -5
Dr Mann Just looking at the 'Wrist Lever Actions' as per EA Tischlers image below. I am assuming he is using a neutral grip before demonstrating the 'Vertical', 'Diagonal' and 'Horizontal' hinge patterns. I tried this out at home and observed the following: Vertical Hinge - Seems like a circumduction of both wrists (radial deviation and extension happening together) - no supination/pronation Diagonal Hinge - Seems to be as follows: a. Circumduction of trail wrist (radial deviation and extension) b. Circumduction of lead wrist ( radial deviation and extension) + 'some pronation' Horizontal Hinge - seems to be as follows: a. Extension of trail wrist - + 'some supination' b. Radial deviation of lead wrist + 'some pronation'b. No radial deviation of lead wrist but there is pronation. Do you think I've got this correct? DG
I cannot be sure whether there is roll motion mainly happening at the level of the wrist joints or at the level of the lower forearm in diagonal hinging. I think that's a problem with Tischler's thinking because he does not take into account biomechanically natural ways of angling the club in a consistent manner. The advantage of maintaining an intact LFFW/GFLW alignment is that any GFLW rotation is solely due to forearm rotation, and not due to variable amounts of wrist circumductory roll motion and forearm rotation, which could vary from swing-to-swing.The situation is compounded if both the left and right forearm's/wrist's roll motions are used actively to control the club's motion in 3D space because one then has to coordinate left-and-right active roll actions happening simultaneously. The advantage of a TGM swinging action using the intact LFFW/GFLW technique is that simplifies the roll motion that is required so that it does not happen at multiple joint sites.
Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on May 24, 2021 6:54:21 GMT -5
Many thanks Dr Mann
DG
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Post by dubiousgolfer on May 24, 2021 8:07:21 GMT -5
Dr Mann
Isn't it likely that Mike Adams/Terry Rowles have had access to John Sinclairs TPI database and viewed all the trail wrist pronation/supination graphs? If they have , then they could have been making the same mistake that others have made when deciphering those graphs (just like Erik Barzeski did in his Sandtrap forum).
The simple mistake is that the labelling on the TPI report for 'Trail Wrist' supination and pronation says "Pro-Sup" which normally infers 'Pronation' in the top positive half of the graph , while 'Supination' in the negative half. But in fact the top half of the graph is 'Supination' while the bottom half 'Pronation'.
If they have made that mistake then they might have thought their 'On Top' forearm/wrist actions have been validated by the graphs shown in the TPI database. I have informed Terry Rowles of this fact in a 'You-Tube' comment.
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on May 24, 2021 8:28:16 GMT -5
Dr Mann Isn't it likely that Mike Adams/Terry Rowles have had access to John Sinclairs TPI database and viewed all the trail wrist pronation/supination graphs? If they have , then they could have been making the same mistake that others have made when deciphering those graphs (just like Erik Barzeski did in his Sandtrap forum). The simple mistake is that the labelling on the TPI report for 'Trail Wrist' supination and pronation says "Pro-Sup" which normally infers 'Pronation' in the top positive half of the graph , while 'Supination' in the negative half. But in fact the top half of the graph is 'Supination' while the bottom half 'Pronation'. If they have made that mistake then they might have thought their 'On Top' forearm/wrist actions have been validated by the graphs shown in the TPI database. I have informed Terry Rowles of this fact in a 'You-Tube' comment. DG I would be surprised if MA/TR have made that basic mistake because they should have access to Jon Sinclair's graphs (which I previously posted) and his well reported comments that dual forearm supination happens in the late downswing in most pro golfers. MA/TR should also have access to Sasho MacKenzie's and Dr. Kwon's force/torque graphs that show that the right hand couple torque is negative in the late downswing after P6, and yet they state that a golfer should be pushing against the aft side of the club handle during the later downswing. Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on May 24, 2021 9:02:21 GMT -5
Dr Mann Isn't it likely that Mike Adams/Terry Rowles have had access to John Sinclairs TPI database and viewed all the trail wrist pronation/supination graphs? If they have , then they could have been making the same mistake that others have made when deciphering those graphs (just like Erik Barzeski did in his Sandtrap forum). The simple mistake is that the labelling on the TPI report for 'Trail Wrist' supination and pronation says "Pro-Sup" which normally infers 'Pronation' in the top positive half of the graph , while 'Supination' in the negative half. But in fact the top half of the graph is 'Supination' while the bottom half 'Pronation'. If they have made that mistake then they might have thought their 'On Top' forearm/wrist actions have been validated by the graphs shown in the TPI database. I have informed Terry Rowles of this fact in a 'You-Tube' comment. DG I would be surprised if MA/TR have made that basic mistake because they should have access to Jon Sinclair's graphs (which I previously posted) and his well reported comments that dual forearm supination happens in the late downswing in most pro golfers. MA/TR should also have access to Sasho MacKenzie's and Dr. Kwon's force/torque graphs that show that the right hand couple torque is negative in the late downswing after P6, and yet they state that a golfer should be pushing against the aft side of the club handle during the later downswing. Jeff. I seem to recollect in one of the videos some close association with Michael Jacobs . If that's the case then they might be using positive hand torque concepts. We'll just have to wait and see what evidence MA/TR show to validate their opinions. SG
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Post by dubiousgolfer on May 24, 2021 12:01:37 GMT -5
Terry Rowles replied back to me regarding Jon Sinclairs TPI graphs and said
"We used Sasho and Phil to do the research. They understand better than me as a golf pro how to measure and assess. Thanks. Always open to learning. If you are you should watch their in depth presentations within our workshops, seems like you are more into in depth analysis than social media snippets."
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on May 25, 2021 8:53:55 GMT -5
Terry Rowles replied back to me regarding Jon Sinclairs TPI graphs and said "We used Sasho and Phil to do the research. They understand better than me as a golf pro how to measure and assess. Thanks. Always open to learning. If you are you should watch their in depth presentations within our workshops, seems like you are more into in depth analysis than social media snippets." DG Where are their in-depth presentations within a MA/TR workshop? Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on May 25, 2021 10:10:08 GMT -5
I've asked TR for more details.
DG
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Post by dubiousgolfer on May 25, 2021 17:48:00 GMT -5
Dr Mann I've not received a reply yet from TR but I have found the website that listed all the presentations. theultimategolflesson.com/linksThe links which require passwords don't work (ie. zoom types) but this 'Ultimate Golf Lesson 2 ' is free to look at and has more details regarding how swing biomechanics seem to change with different strength grips. vimeo.com/411654719/0831fba38dDG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on May 25, 2021 18:44:24 GMT -5
Dr Mann I've not received a reply yet from TR but I have found the website that listed all the presentations. theultimategolflesson.com/linksThe links which require passwords don't work (ie. zoom types) but this 'Ultimate Golf Lesson 2 ' is free to look at and has more details regarding how swing biomechanics seem to change with different strength grips. vimeo.com/411654719/0831fba38dDG Very interesting video! It would be very helpful if you can find links to the two videos featuring Phil Cheetham and Sasho MacKenzie. In fact, I would very much like to view all those videos listed. Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on May 25, 2021 19:09:57 GMT -5
Yes , I'd like to see them all too. MA provides many examples of similar swing patterns for pro golfers with matching right hand grip styles. This one below is available to see vimeo.com/414374560/976eb73e45DG
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Post by dubiousgolfer on May 26, 2021 7:41:28 GMT -5
I've asked TR another question:
"Hi Terry - I need to ask a question about Under/Side-On/On-Top. Are you referencing the ground when defining the orientation of the hand/forearm in space? Or is it relative to your forward bend posture angle?"
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on May 26, 2021 9:34:50 GMT -5
DG, I contacted Terry Rowles and found out that you have to pay $250 to access the downloadable program containing all 12 sessions. theultimategolflesson.com/store-2-1I payed $250 and I now have access to private (not publically available) you-tube videos, and not downloadable files. Very expensive! However, I need to learn all I can about MA/TR's opinions. Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on May 26, 2021 10:36:24 GMT -5
Dr Mann
Yes , I noted that to see all presentations one would have to purchase the 'whole caboodle' of that $250 package. I can't imagine there will be that much more to learn from SMK and Phil Cheetham with regards the kinematics and kinetics of the golf swing (that we've already analysed from inverse dynamic graphs and research articles).
But I was interested in how Phil Cheetham defines and measures the strength of the grip although I can suspect he might be using a 'neutral arm' position and the 'anatomical snuffbox' as some reference points.
DG
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Post by dubiousgolfer on May 28, 2021 8:40:40 GMT -5
I've asked TR another question: "Hi Terry - I need to ask a question about Under/Side-On/On-Top. Are you referencing the ground when defining the orientation of the hand/forearm in space? Or is it relative to your forward bend posture angle?" DG Received an answer from TR "Relative to the clubs leading edge . Grip is a relationship to the face" I don't really understand that answer unless a golfer is assumed to be gripping the club in such a way as to match some 'biomechanical pattern' of trail elbow and forearm movements depicted by the tests below. Actually , the answer to my question is below (didn't notice it before) and it seems to be related to the spine. Also received this reply from TR regarding ROC. "Is minimizing ROC a good thing ? Have a study for that? As the data stands I don’t agree that reducing ROC is good for all so that is a flawed starting point. Increasing speed, improving contact, reducing dispersion are all good outcome based targets. We talk at length about optimizing path / face and Grf in the education program and teach it on a daily basis." DG
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