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Post by dubiousgolfer on May 28, 2021 9:55:55 GMT -5
Here is what Jon Sinclair has sent to me. "To be clear the trail arm will be supinating to just before impact in every tour player in my data base. You for sure want it to pronate through impact. Often you will also see some pronation in early downswing. A lot of times you will see a double move like the graph below. Blue is pronation supination." Note that Jon Sinclair has confirmed to me that the top half of the graph is SUPINATION , while the bottom half is 'PRONATION' (The labelling 'PRO-SUP' is an error). One can see that trail wrist circumduction is happening from P6.0 (I think ) to P7 , the GREEN graph is showing increasing 'extension-flexion' direction at the same time that RED graph is increasing its ulnar deviation. DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on May 30, 2021 9:16:45 GMT -5
I am presently viewing the 12 video sessions and I will start posting comments in a few weeks time because I disagree with many of their opinions. Addendum added later.
The 12 video sessions last >20 hours so I have lots of viewing hours ahead. I have only viewed the first 5 sessions. The more I view the videos, the more I agree with many of their opinions, so it is proving to be a very worthwhile learning experience. I now finally agree that a pro golfer can use a punch elbow motion and have the trail palm facing groundwards during the downswing. Here are capture images of Marc Leishman manifesting that on-top (cover) pattern.
Capture images from P4 => P6
Capture images from P6 => P7.4.
Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Jun 1, 2021 7:59:30 GMT -5
Dr Mann
If it's true that on-top golfers like Leishman and Hoffmann can have the trail palm facing more downwards while still supinating their forearm from say P6-P6.7, then it will be interesting to read your biomechanical explanation how the clubhead can still stay on the functional plane in the downswing.
If true then I can only guess that there is some internal rotation of the trail humerus + some additional forearm pronation at address (giving that very On-Top trail hand looking grip). Then the trail humerus becomes somewhat less internally rotated in the downswing with some trail forearm supination such that the club still remains 'on plane' (but still visually shows the trail palm facing partially downward).
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 1, 2021 8:18:44 GMT -5
Dr Mann If it's true that on-top golfers like Leishman and Hoffmann can have the trail palm facing more downwards while still supinating their forearm from say P6-P6.7, then it will be interesting to read your biomechanical explanation how the clubhead can still stay on the functional plane in the downswing. If true then I can only guess that there is some internal rotation of the trail humerus + some additional forearm pronation at address (giving that very On-Top trail hand looking grip). Then the trail humerus becomes somewhat less internally rotated in the downswing with some trail forearm supination such that the club still remains 'on plane' (but still visually shows the trail palm facing partially downward). DG I think that if one converts from an on-top trail palm position (trail palm facing groundwards) at P6 to then performing a trail forearm supinatory motion + clockwise trail wrist circumductory motion, then it is possible to keep the clubshaft on the functional swingplane between P6 => P7. Jeff. p.s. DG - check your messages.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Jun 2, 2021 13:05:27 GMT -5
I also found some videos where MA was demonstrating some of his ideas.
Example below is where MA states that the lead hand grip is required to match hip speed while the right hand a stabilizer of clubface. That various tests need to be undertaken to dial into the lead hand grip whether the golfer is a spinner or launcher.
In the video he demonstrates a few tests and claims that a golfer who is a 'Spinner' with fast hips will have his hands leading the club more (forward lean) approaching impact which will tend to open up the clubface , therefore the lead hand grip needs to be made stronger.
Also he tests what tends to happen to golfers who are launchers to check how the clubface rotates when there are high 'centripetal' forces applied through the club and arms. Depending on the rotation , he can then 'dial' into the correct lead hand grip strength to match the golfers biomechanical pattern.
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 2, 2021 16:03:20 GMT -5
I also found some videos where MA was demonstrating some of his ideas. Example below is where MA states that the lead hand grip is required to match hip speed while the right hand a stabilizer of clubface. That various tests need to be undertaken to dial into the lead hand grip whether the golfer is a spinner or launcher. In the video he demonstrates a few tests and claims that a golfer who is a 'Spinner' with fast hips will have his hands leading the club more (forward lean) approaching impact which will tend to open up the clubface , therefore the lead hand grip needs to be made stronger. Also he tests what tends to happen to golfers who are launchers to check how the clubface rotates when there are high 'centripetal' forces applied through the club and arms. Depending on the rotation , he can then 'dial' into the correct lead hand grip strength to match the golfers biomechanical pattern. DG I disagree with MA when he states that the lead hand grip strength can "stabilise" the hips. How can the lead hand control the rotational motion speed of the pelvis? I can readily agree that having a very strong lead hand grip goes very well with a very open pelvis at impact. Here is an example - featuring Milo Lines. Note that he has lot of forward shaft lean at impact with his hands ahead of the clubhead - which is easier with a strong lead hand grip. However, there are other ways to come into impact with forward shaft lean - using a weak or neutral lead hand grip. The one way is to use the combination of a weak lead hand grip + bowed lead wrist.
Here are two examples - featuring Collin Morikawa and Jon Rahm. They both have a very open pelvis alignment at impact despite using a weak lead hand grip. Another way to get forward shaft lean at impact with a non-strong lead hand grip is to come into impact with a slightly pronated lead forearm - as seen in Henrik Stenson's swing action. Note that he acquires forward shaft lean at impact with an open pelvis alignment by having a finite amount of lead forearm pronation at impact. I also disagree with MA's claim that the trail hand grip controls the clubface in a golfer who uses a TGM swinging action. Here is a golfer - Logan Aldridge - using his lead arm/hand to control his clubface because he has no trail arm/hand. Here are capture images of his downswing. He is using a weak-or-neutral lead hand grip, and he has an open pelvis alignment at impact. He is using a TGM swinging action combined with a an intact LFFW/GFLW technique, and he squares the clubface at impact by using a PA#3 release action. If he had a trail arm/hand, he could fruitfully use it to support the motion of the intact LFFW between P6 => P7 and he could do it with either an under trail hand grip or a side-on trail hand grip by varying the degree of degree of i) trail arm straightening, ii) degree of trail forearm supination, iii) degree of trail wrist straightening and iv) degree of trail wrist circumductory roll motion that are happening between P6 => P7. It makes no sense to me to claim that the trail hand must "stabilise" the face because it could require a consistent/repeatable degree of i) trail arm straightening, ii) degree of trail forearm supination, iii) degree of trail wrist straightening and iv) degree of trail wrist circumductory roll motion that are happening between P6 => P7 in every swing, which is not easily achievable.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 2, 2021 17:03:17 GMT -5
Another comment on which hand controls the clubface between P6 => P7 and into impact. Here is Rory McIlroy at address. Note that he has a slightly strong (2-3 knuckles) lead hand grip, which naturally allows him to have forward shaft lean at address.
Note that his trail wrist grip is weak (on-top) and that his trail wrist is straightened at address. Here is Rory McIlroy at impact. Note that his lead hand is pronated the same amount at impact and he has the same degree of forward shaft lean (compared to address). However, note that his trail arm is less straightened, and his trail forearm is more supinated, and his trail wrist is more bent, and his trail hand is more under the club handle - compared to address.
Did the changes in his i) degree of trail arm straightening, ii) trail forearm supination and iii) trail wrist degree of extension and iv) trail palm's facing direction that are happening during his late downswing (when he has more secondary axis tilt and right lateral bend) happen in order to accomodate his trail arm/hand to the left arm/hand alignment that is present at impact - or vica versa? Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Jun 2, 2021 17:19:53 GMT -5
Excellent posts Dr Mann
DG
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Jun 4, 2021 6:41:06 GMT -5
Looking at this test below again , it doesn't make sense to me because golfers might wish to swing the club with their arms more outstretched further away from their trunk. The further away my arms are from my trunk when I do this test , the more 'side-on' I become. The closer my arms are to my trunk (more vertical while retaining the same posture), the more 'On-Top' they become. DG PS. Maybe there are other tests that determine how outstretched your arms should be depending on other biomechanical tests.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 4, 2021 7:18:21 GMT -5
DG, Here is an image from one of the TR/MA webinar session videos. The top 3 golfers are side-on golfers who are using a pitch elbow motion with their trail elbow in front of their trail hip joint. You can see that their lead arm is outstretched.
The bottom 3 golfers are on-top golfers and their lead arm is more vertical because they are using a punch elbow motion with their trail elbow positioned alongside their trail shirt seam. Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Jun 4, 2021 9:47:02 GMT -5
Dr Mann - many thanks So does this mean that the degree of lead arm outstretched is mainly dependent on the 'Trail Grip Delivery Style'? But the test for that 'Trail Grip Delivery Style' can be skewed depending how outstretched their arms were when doing the test. It seems like a catch-22 situation unless there are other tests involved. The golfers posture angle can also make it seem as if the arms are more outstretched (see picture below where I rotated Justin Rose's trunk to approximately match the golfers above). There are quite a few statements by MA that I cannot figure out from a 'Kinetics' side such as the lead foot flare dictating vertical ground forces and 'Release' . How can left foot flare dictate 'Release' unless it has some influence on the timing and magnitude of the MOF (moment of force) that is used increase the angular velocity of the club from around P5.5 . I can only guess that 'less' left foot flare will tend to lock the knee and create earlier internal rotation of the femur in the left hip socket (if the left foot is somehow pressure loaded into the ground and prevented from spinning) . This will stall any further pelvic rotation in the CCW direction and the left leg will tend to push into the ground, extending the leg to push the left hip socket up and back to move the pelvis out of the way. Somehow this vertical force will push the left side of the pelvis and torso /shoulder socket up , which will also pull the left arm up and also create a more curved hand path and increase the MOF to trigger 'Release' . This release will be earlier in the downswing compared to a swing with more left foot flare. Personally , I find all the above hard to believe. DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 4, 2021 14:00:53 GMT -5
DG, Under and side-on golfers have their lead arm outstretched so that their lead hand is outside a vertical line drawn vertically down from their chin at P6. That makes sense if they have a trail pitch elbow alignment at P6 (center linkage) and if their trail forearm is more horizontally oriented. An on-top golfer will have his trail elbow behind his trail hip area (rear linkage) and his trail forearm will be less horizontal. The lead hand will therefore be under the chin at P6 or inside a vertical line drawn down from the chin. I do not think that the trail wrist/hand screening test is valid - because I can comfortably perform either an on-top takeaway action or a side-on takeaway action, and it should not mandate that my delivery action be defined by my takeaway pattern. For example, some on-top golfers shallow their clubshaft between P4 => P6 and therefore have a pitch elbow alignment at P6. Here is an example - Colin Montgomerie.
Note that he has an on-top takeaway action.
However, note that he has a pitch elbow alignment at P6 with a horizontal trail forearm and his hands are outside a vertical line drawn downwards from his chin and his lead arm is outstretched. So, he does not have an on-top delivery action, despite having a weak trail grip and an on-top takeaway action.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 4, 2021 14:09:45 GMT -5
DG,
Having lead foot flare can allow the pelvis to continue to rotate in the later downswing and it can facilitate having the trail elbow moving further targetwards across the front of the pelvis thereby allowing for a late release pattern. Keeping the lead foot square (non-flared) can impede pelvic rotation and act as a "brake" if the vertical GRF under lead foot is significantly increased after P5.5 and that action can facilitate an earlier trail arm straightening action and release.
Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Jun 4, 2021 17:16:49 GMT -5
Many thanks Dr Mann
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 5, 2021 9:24:17 GMT -5
I have finished viewing the 12 webinar sessions, which contains a wealth of material. I now have to restart viewing the 12 sessions in order to take notes and make capture images. I was most impressed by their GRF data and how it explains how different golfers move their pelvis. I was least impressed by their opinions that a golfer controls the clubface via the trail hand rather than the lead hand (eg. TGM swinging action combined with an intact LFFW/GFLW technique).
Here is an interesting example. MA/TR state that on-top golfers (who use a weak trail hand grip) should come down a steeper track between P4 => P6, while under golfers (who use a very strong trail hand grip) should come down a low track between P4 => P6 and that they should get their trial elbow in front of their right hip joint (front linkage) during the late downswing so that they can have a later release. Also, they suggest that these golfers will more likely have an open pelvis at impact, which also suggests that they must have a strong lead hand grip.
However, consider Shawn Clements' golf swing action. He uses a very strong lead hand grip and a very strong trail hand grip - despite the fact that his club comes down a steeper path in his early-mid downswing and despite the fact that his pelvis is not inordinately open at impact. Why does he use such a strong lead hand/trail hand grip? I think that it is due to the fact that has zero torso-pelvic separation and that his upper torso rotates in perfect unison with his pelvis during his downswing action. I think that it is near-impossible to perform a covering upper torso action combined with a punch elbow motion of the trail arm under those spine-limiting conditions - and simultaneously "slot" the club so that one can generate an in-to-out clubhead path between P4 => P7.
Jeff.
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