Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 1, 2023 13:22:48 GMT -5
Watch this AMG video on shoulder tilts in the full golf swing action.
It is interesting that they are producing this video at this exact moment in time - very soon after Milo Lines produced this controversial video on clubshaft shallowing.
I strongly suspect that the AMG instructors produced their video to get at Milo Lines and to contradict some of his opinions.
It is interesting that they are producing this video at this exact moment in time - very soon after Milo Lines produced this controversial video on clubshaft shallowing.
I strongly suspect that the AMG instructors produced their video to get at Milo Lines and to contradict some of his opinions.
A comment in the commentary section of the AMG video stated-: "I trust you guys but there is a lot of confusion about this out there. Have you seen Milo Lines recent video where he shows some swings in gears and says basically the opposite that you are saying? He says it is thoracic bend that is shallowing the club, not the arms. He doesn’t seem to focus on the right measurements though. Thoughts?"
The AMG instructors replied as follows-: "Yeah that’s unfortunate he gives the impression he uses gears because he’s never owned or operated gears . He has a copy of the software with a “starter pack” of pro swings. We’re putting a video together now showing contradiction of what he says with what those 3 pro’s actually do. Your instincts are right."
I am personally very sympathetic to many of the comments made by the AMG instructors and I can agree with most of their opinions. I am only disappointed that they did not discuss the issue of right lateral bend and how variations in the degree of right lateral bend affect the shoulder turn angle measurements at P6, P7 and P8.
The AMG instructors think of the backswing action's spine/shoulder tilts in the same way as I do, and they simply state that when a golfer rotates the upper torso clockwise during the backswing while maintaining a constant spinal bend inclination angle, that the shoulder turn angle at P4 will point about 4 - 8' outside the ball-target line. They envisage that the shoulders are rotating in a neutral/level manner relative to the upper thoracic spine so that the shoulder turn angle will be ~90 degrees angled relative to the upper thoracic spine at P4.
Here is an example - featuring Adam Scott.
Note that his shoulder turn angle is roughly perpendicular to his upper thoracic spine at P4, and that it is relatively horizontal to the ground.
There is nothing to suggest that AS is performing a left-lateral bend of the thoracic spine phenomenon, which Milo Lines thinks should be happening in a pro golfer's backswing action. I disagree with Milo that a significant degree of left-lateral bend should be mandatorily incorporated into the thoracic spine's motion between P1 => P4. I believe that it is an optional choice and it will likely only be present to a significant degree if the golfer uses a leftwards-centralised backswing loading pattern or a vertical-centralised backswing loading pattern - but it will not be present to any significant degree if a golfer uses a rightwards-centralised backswing loading pattern.
Here are the backswing loading patterns described by the S&T authors in their book.
A = Rightwards-tilted
B= Rightwards-centralised
C = Leftwards-centralised
D = Leftwards-tilted
I think that most pros use either the B or C pattern, or a vertical-centralised backswing loading pattern, which is intermediate between B and C.
To go from a B pattern to a C pattern, a pro golfer has to add more left-lateral bend of the thoracic spine plus a finite degree of thoracic spine extension.
I think that both pattern B and C are equally acceptable, and I think that each individual golfer should choose which backswing loading pattern works best for him.
Here is Stuart Appleby's upper torso loading pattern during his backswing action.
Note that he has a rightwards-centralised backswing loading pattern at P4, and note that his shoulder turn angle is relatively horizontal at P4 (like Adam Scott).
Milo Lines talks of going from left-lateral bend at P4 to right-lateral bend at P5 via a pivot motion and he believes that the pivot motion involving the upper torso is causally responsible for the clubshaft shallowing motion.
I disagree!
I believe that it makes no sense to assert that a pro golfer, who uses a rightwards-centralised backswing loading pattern, is going from left-lateral bend at P4 to right-lateral bend at P5. I also believe that the AMG instructors are correct to assert that the clubshaft shallowing action is due to an arm action, and not due to a pivot motion (as Milo claims) - see the verbal comments/ demos between the 3:40 - 6:06 minute time point of the AMG video. I fully agree with the AMG instructors that the phenomenon of i) slotting the club between P4 => P5.5 and ii) the phenomenon of clubshaft shallowing (if a pro golfer decides to shallow his clubshaft) is primarily due to an independent arm motion, and that it is not primarily due to a pivot motion (in the way that Milo demonstrates in his video).
The AMG instructors also discuss the right shoulder's motion between P6 => P8+ in their video - watch between the 6:08 - 7:31 minute time points of the video. They state that the right shoulder should not point at the ball during the P6 => P7 time period.
Here is Dustin Johnson's trail shoulder motion between P5.5 => P7.
Note that DJ has minimal right lateral bend of his thoracic spine at P5 (image 2) and note that it becomes more significant in degree between P5.5 (image 3) and P7 (image 5). Also, note that his right shoulder is not angled so steeply between P5.5 => P7 that it can be correctly described as "pointing at the ball". I prefer to say that the trail shoulder is moving more downplane between P5.5 and P7 and that it only points more steeply downwards at the ball-target line in the followthrough between P7.5 => P9.
Image 3 is at P7 - note that his trail shoulder is moving downplane, but I can agree with the AMG instructors that it is not very steep at that time point.
Image 4 is at P8 - note that the trail shoulder is turning more steeply so that it can be correctly described to be pointing at the ball-target line.
Jeff.
