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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 14, 2023 10:44:10 GMT -5
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janik
Full Member
Posts: 143
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Post by janik on Feb 14, 2023 13:13:00 GMT -5
Hi Dr. Mann,
I find George Gankas great….at talking nonsense!!
I am bemused that he appears to have a healthy online popularity, and indeed some tour pros have been coached by him.
Anyone with any logical sense can see his slow motion demonstrations do not look anything like a good golf swing. One often uses the “feel vs real” debate to justify such teachings. My argument to “leave the arms up” as a feel would be this: if the objective was to swing the club head 4 feet off the ground, but a feeling of not lowering your arms results in a good golf swing, then how would one actually achieve an intent of missing the ball by 4 feet?! It should be impossible if the arms lower “automatically”.
I normally don’t like listening to Manzella either, but agree with his rebuttal in the second video.
Cheers Janik
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Post by playing18 on Feb 14, 2023 14:15:50 GMT -5
I agree with janik.
In general, I like to stick up for golf instructors because they are usually working hard to find what might work for a given player. However, although they might understand a lot about the golf swing, they often get caught up in promoting what works for a given group of amateurs (unfit, inflexible, high handicappers) as the answer for all golfers. On the other hand, GG often promotes what might only work with fit, flexible, and low handicap golfers. In any event, I prefer instructors who are lower-energy, non-sales persons who don't act like they know everything. It's a bit annoying when golfers "worship" a given instructor as the be-all, end-all, but I'm glad we have choices.
I didn't listen to the videos closely, but GG is off-base in suggesting that the lead arm is only lowered down to the p5 by the pivot (as BM suggests, it must have some degree of independent downward motion). In addition, GG suggests that the lead arm explodes off the chest at p5 which implies the lead arm increases in speed from p5 to p7, however, we know that lead arm exhibits its fastest angular acceleration from p4 to 5.5, and then the lead arm begins to slow down as the lead leg straightens and as the lead shoulder begins to rotate away from the target. Importantly, as the lead arm slows, it provides time for the lead wrist to unhinge (PA#2), the lead forearm to rotate (PA#3, depending on grip strength), and the trail wrist to circumduct (involving simultaneous trail forearm supination) so the club head can catch up to the ball with proper timing and point to the target at impact. In the end, the club shaft/head increases in speed from p4 to p7. Quite the amazing process.
The pivot is essential and "drives" the arm swing, but the arms do have an important independent role, which Dr. Mann carefully explains.
Jim - playing18
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 14, 2023 16:56:56 GMT -5
I agree with Jim that the biggest problem with GG's description is that he implies that the lead arm gets catapulted off the chest starting at about P5.5 and that the lead arm then moves very fast after P5.5. However, that means that the lead arm must be traveling very fast between P5.5 => P7 and that will make it very difficult to complete the release of PA#2 in time so that the clubshaft can catch up to the lead arm by impact. Here are capture images of GG demonstrating his technique. Image 1 is at a simulated P4 position where his lead arm is adducted across his chest and where his trail upper arm is abducted. He likes to start off with his trail upper arm externally rotated to a small degree, but most pro golfers' trail upper arms are probably neutral at P4. Image 2 is at a simulated P5 position and he is squating and completing his hip-squaring phase. Note that he keeps his lead upper arm adducted to the same degree and he is not actively adducting his trail upper arm towards his trail side shirt seam. He is seemingly "carrying" his arms down from P4 => P5 and he does not seem to be accelerating his lead arm actively between P4 => P5. Image 3 is at P5.5. Note that he still has his lead arm fully adducted at P5.5 with his hands at waist level.
From that P5.5 position, GG talks of catapulting his lead arm away from his chest - presumably via a rotary pivot motion involving a fast motion of his lead shoulder socket. That would cause the lead arm to move very fast between P5.5 => P7 and I don't know how he could succeed in completing the release of PA#2 by impact. I think that most pro golfers accelerate their lead arm between P4 => P5.5 so that their lead arm speed reaches its peak speed at ~P5.5 and they then allow their lead arm to automatically/naturally slow down between ~P5.5 => P7. Consider Logan Aldridge's lead arm-only driver golf swing action where he drives the ball >300 yards. There is a slow motion video of his swing action at the 0:56 minute time point. Here are capture images. Image 1 is at P4, image 2 is at P5, image 3 is at P5.5 and image 4 is at P6. Note that he start his downswing with a pelvic rotary motion that allows him to square his pelvis by P5. Note that his upper torso is also rotating clockwise between P4 => P5 and that moves his lead shoulder socket targetwards. The pivot-induced motion of the lead shoulder socket pulls the lead arm mainly downwards, and not outwards in the direction of the ball-target line. Note that his clubshaft is "on-plane" while he is simultaneously shallowing his clubshaft. Note that his lead arm is still roughly adducted to the same degree at P5 as it was at P4. Note how his lead arm is abducting a lot between P5 => P5.5 due to the fact that his lead arm is traveling faster than his upper torso. I strongly suspect that his lead arm is reaching its maximum speed at ~P5.5. Note that he still has a ~90 clubhead lag angle at P5.5. Note that he starts to release PA#2 between P5.5 => P6 which usually is associated with a slowing down of the lead arm speed.
Note that one does not need a trail arm to perform an excellent pivot-induced release of PA#4 where the lead arm reaches its maximum speed at ~P5.5. However, if one uses the trail arm, then the trail hand must move at the same speed as the lead hand so that it does not impede the speed of release of PA#4. Also, to help maintain a clubhead lag angle of ~90 degrees to P5.5, it makes sense to keep the trail elbow bend angle unchanged between P4 => P5.5 while the trail upper arm is actively adducted (using a pitch elbow motion of the trail arm) at a speed that allows the trail hand to keep up with the speed of the lead hand. I think that George Gankas actually follows my descriptive advice in his "real life" golf swing action - as seen in the following animated gif image. Note that GG is seemingly performing a pivot-induced release of PA#4 and that his lead hand is traveling very fast between P4 => P5.5. Note how his lead upper arm abducts away from his chest wall between P5 => P5.5 due to the efficient pivot-induced release of PA#4. Note how actively he adducts his trail upper arm between P4 => P5 so that it is already fully adducted by P5. Note how he maintains a clubhead lag angle of ~90 degrees between P4 => P5.5 and that he does not prematurely straighten his trail elbow between P5 => P5.5. Jeff.
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