janik
Full Member
Posts: 143
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Post by janik on Jul 23, 2023 14:29:03 GMT -5
Have a look at this lesson from the maestro Pete Cowen. I don’t know his exact fees but can only imagine them to be high given he even tells Mr Maude that he couldn’t afford him at the start. youtu.be/iP0sBzIXRtcMy favourite piece of knowledge was holding two shafts at a right angle out toward the range and explaining somehow that horizontal and vertical vectors cause left and right misses. If Pete Cowen’s nonsensical tuition and knowledge are worth thousands per lesson then Dr. Mann’s knowledge is truly priceless.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Jul 24, 2023 18:50:49 GMT -5
It seems that Pete Cowen is theorising that clubhead speed could be increased by active trail forearm pronation with an intact RIGHT ARM FLYING WEDGE (RAFW) RIGHT FOREARM FLYING WEDGE . I amended from saying RAFW (see video further below) to RFFW because in the video he says "spinning his forearm down" but keeping his extended wrist condition stable.
However, Jon Sinclair graphs show trail forearm supination (not pronation) graphs happening from P4-P6.5, so tour pros are not doing what Pete Cowen is suggesting (pronation from P5.5-P7).
I think he is also incorrect about applying pressure on the shaft/clubface because whatever one does with the hands on the grip doesn't have any influence on the clubface during ball impact time 0.0004 secs.
He didn't actually commit himself to saying that a positive torque was being applied by a stable wrist on the grip approaching impact, but his demonstration seemed to infer its likelihood. If he does believe a positive torque is being applied, we know that isn't true for a full driver and long iron swing, because there is a net negative torque applied by the hands on the grip due to the forward shaft bend approaching impact.
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jul 26, 2023 9:53:09 GMT -5
Have a look at this lesson from the maestro Pete Cowen. I don’t know his exact fees but can only imagine them to be high given he even tells Mr Maude that he couldn’t afford him at the start. youtu.be/iP0sBzIXRtcMy favourite piece of knowledge was holding two shafts at a right angle out toward the range and explaining somehow that horizontal and vertical vectors cause left and right misses. If Pete Cowen’s nonsensical tuition and knowledge are worth thousands per lesson then Dr. Mann’s knowledge is truly priceless. PC infers that the active motion of the right arm/forearm in the downswing can cause the pelvis to reactively rotate counterclockwise so that a very open pelvic alignment at impact will result in a CP-arm release action. This pattern of golf swing action has been previously described by me when I described the biomechanics of right arm swinging and a reactive pivot motion.
PC does not explain how a right forearm throw motion (in an underhand stone-skipping manner) can cause the pelvis to reactively rotate counterclockwise in a very desirable manner. I believe that it can happen if the downplane motion of the trail shoulder applies a force to the thoracic/lumbar spine to cause it to rotate counterclockwise, which then secondarily causes the pelvis to rotate counterclockwise as rotary mechanical energy is transmitted downwards via the spine to the pelvis. However, any "force" being applied by an active motion of the trail shoulder area may not necessarily produce a desirable pattern of pelvic motion where the pelvis leads the upper torso in an optimum manner - because of the variable degree of hula hula flexibility of different golfers. In fact, it may induce too much outward motion of the trail shoulder and predispose to an OTT motion in the early downswing, or it may cause the thoracic spine to rotate faster than the lumbar spine during the mid-downswing and cause a mid-downswing OTT move. It may also cause the head/shoulders to move targetwards when we really want the pelvis/lumbar spine to move targetwards while the upper torso is held back producing a situation of secondary axis tilt.
PC also does not discuss how swing power is generated in his recommended swing model style. A right arm swinging action with a reactive pivot motion produces swing power by the release of PA#5 (and not via a pivot-induced release of PA#4). I cannot understand how a pro golfer (eg. Rory McIlroy) can use that "right forearm throw" technique if he uses a pivot-induced release of PA#4 to power his swing. How can one integrate two actively induced pivot-actions at the same time if they are both activated simultaneously and they work very differently.
Danny Maude is a skilled golfer who seemingly uses the standard pivot-induced release of PA#4. Note how he had great difficulty getting the desirable degree of pelvic motion opening through impact when being taught by PC. He also had great difficulty getting PC's recommended amount of trail arm straightening and trail wrist straightening at impact and PC often criticised his performance. I personally think that in a pivot-induced TGM swinging action that the motion of the trail arm/forearm/wrist is of secondary importance and that it can be synergistically helpful if perfected, but I cannot understand how a golf instructor can try and improve a TGM swinger's golf swing action by focusing the golfer's attention mainly on the motion of the trail arm/forearm/wrist!
Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Jul 26, 2023 18:20:50 GMT -5
Dr Mann
You said "He also had great difficulty getting PC's recommended amount of trail arm straightening and trail wrist straightening at impact" .
I thought PC wanted DM not to straighten the trail wrist but to keep it extended before and through P7.
I find PC's instruction too vague to interpret , especially from 6:06 - 6:22 where he talks about body pressure where the chest, right side and right arm are applying shaft pressure. What does he actually mean by that and why does he think it will compress the ball better?
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jul 26, 2023 18:32:28 GMT -5
Dr Mann You said "He also had great difficulty getting PC's recommended amount of trail arm straightening and trail wrist straightening at impact" . I thought PC wanted DM not to straighten the trail wrist but to keep it extended before and through P7. I find PC's instruction too vague to interpret , especially from 6:06 - 6:22 where he talks about body pressure where the chest, right side and right arm are applying shaft pressure. What does he actually mean by that and why does he think it will compress the ball better? DG I agree that PC does not want the trail wrist to straighten before impact. I have no idea what he implies when he talks about the right arm/hand applying pressure at impact!!! We know that pro golfers have a negative trail hand couple pressure at impact if they use a TGM swinging action. Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Jul 27, 2023 7:41:40 GMT -5
In this older video, his description of the trail arm movement (8:30- 16:15) is different and there is no spinning of the forearm. Maybe he's changed his previous views on the biomechanics of the golf swing but it's all still pretty vague from the claimed number 1 coach in the world.
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jul 27, 2023 11:33:48 GMT -5
More Pete Cowen opinions.
Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Nov 5, 2023 15:00:56 GMT -5
It seems that Dr Noel Rousseau is also supporting Pete Cowen's forearm spinning action and trail arm downward pressure technique for the 'advanced' golfer .
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Nov 5, 2023 23:27:24 GMT -5
It seems that Dr Noel Rousseau is also supporting Pete Cowen's forearm spinning action and trail arm downward pressure technique for the 'advanced' golfer . DG I agree that one should not use the L-to-L swing pattern where the trail forearm pronates through impact and rolls the trail hand over the lead hand. When they use the reverse grip pattern, note that it keeps the trail forearm supinated throughout the P6 => P7 time period and when combined with a well-maintained trail wrist extension into impact it will be conducive to a DH-hand release action. I therefore favor that aspect of the "spinning the trail forearm" ideology. However, they wrongly talk about the trail palm facing the ground, which contradicts their demonstration using the reverse hand grip pattern. I also believe that pro golfers are using a TGM swinging action and that the trail palm is not applying a positive push-pressure against the aft side of the club handle below the coupling point at impact - although it may be applying push-pressure against PP#1. I also do not believe that the trail arm is causally responsible for squaring the clubface by impact. Here is Justin Thomas's PA#3 release action. One can see how much the back of his lead hand is rotating counterclockwise between P6.5 (image 2) and P7 (image 3) to get the clubface square by impact. Note that the trail forearm is still supinated at impact, but less supinated compared to P6.5. Note that his trail palm is under the club handle at P6, P6.5 and P7 and it never really gets to face the target at impact. I have no reason to believe that JT's trail forearm motion is the primary factor causing the clubface squaring phenomenon between P6.5 => P7, and I have no reason to believe that his trail palm is applying a large amount of push-pressure against the aft side of the club handle at impact. I would agree that one can think of JT's trail forearm rotating (= "spinning") in a clockwise manner, rather than a counterclockwise manner (as seen in a roller hand release action), between P6 (image 1) => P7.4 (image 4) - which is very conducive to his excellent performance of a DH-hand release action. Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Nov 6, 2023 6:21:25 GMT -5
Dr Mann How can one think of JT's trail forearm rotating (= "spinning") in a clockwise manner when it is becoming less supinated at P7 compared to P6.5 ?
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Nov 6, 2023 10:18:08 GMT -5
Dr Mann How can one think of JT's trail forearm rotating (= "spinning") in a clockwise manner when it is becoming less supinated at P7 compared to P6.5 ? DG Watch the NR video where he talks about the "feel" of the "reverse twist" phenomenon where he resists allowing the trail forearm to pronate during the later downswing and through impact. The "feel" of a clockwise rotation of the trail hand (= "reverse twist" of the trail hand) actually happens between P6 => P6.5 when the trail forearm is still increasingly supinating, but the trail hand then does actually become rotated slightly more counterclockwise during the PA#3 release action that happens between P6.5 => P7. Here is Jon Sinclair's graph of forearm rotation.
The yellow zone is the P6 => P7 time period.
Note that the trail forearm is supinating between P6 => P6.5 and then becomes less supinated between P6.5 => P7.
Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Nov 6, 2023 18:19:13 GMT -5
Dr Mann Yes, at 8:08 NR does mention holding off and applying a reverse twist to hold the clubface square or slow the rate of closure. But he doesn't mention to 'feel' as if its a reverse twist, but to actively apply it. If we refer back to Jon Sinclair's trail wrist extension/flexion graph , it shows the trail wrist moving to less extension from P6-P7 , so the trail wrist has not retained its extension. I haven't seen Jon Sinclair's radial/ulnar deviation graphs for lead/trail wrists but I am assuming it will show some ulnar deviation of the trail wrist from P6-P7 . Therefore the trail wrist 'ulnar deviation & less extension' happening together will tend to passively twist the clubface open, even if the trail forearm is moving into less supination just before impact. Is there any reason why the trail arm cannot deploy an active PP1 (which could cause some pronation) and passive wrist circumduction from around P6.5 - P7.2 (cause a negative twist) to create a low ROC? DG
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Nov 6, 2023 19:06:13 GMT -5
This is why I think circumduction of the trail wrist will tend to create a reverse twist effect on the clubface. Look at the screen images from the video (further below from 10:36-10:39) showing what happens to the hand as the wrist moves simultaneously into ulnar deviation and less extension. The whole surface of the hand/palm rotates more normal to the screen (or the ball-target line). This suggests to me that the trail hand will passively apply a reverse twist on the grip approaching P7 that will tend to try and rotate the clubface open. Note that the clubface won't actually open if the lead forearm is applying a greater rotational torque to close the clubface, but the net effect will be to reduce the handle twist velocity and the ROC (rate of clubface closure). DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Nov 7, 2023 10:53:05 GMT -5
Dr Mann Yes, at 8:08 NR does mention holding off and applying a reverse twist to hold the clubface square or slow the rate of closure. But he doesn't mention to 'feel' as if its a reverse twist, but to actively apply it. If we refer back to Jon Sinclair's trail wrist extension/flexion graph , it shows the trail wrist moving to less extension from P6-P7 , so the trail wrist has not retained its extension. I haven't seen Jon Sinclair's radial/ulnar deviation graphs for lead/trail wrists but I am assuming it will show some ulnar deviation of the trail wrist from P6-P7 . Therefore the trail wrist 'ulnar deviation & less extension' happening together will tend to passively twist the clubface open, even if the trail forearm is moving into less supination just before impact. Is there any reason why the trail arm cannot deploy an active PP1 (which could cause some pronation) and passive wrist circumduction from around P6.5 - P7.2 (cause a negative twist) to create a low ROC? DG If the lead hand is rotating counterclockwise during a PA#3 release action between P6.5 => P7 it will cause the clubshaft to rotate counterclockwise. How can any motion of the trail forearm exaggerate or counter that phenomenon in a TGM swinging action?
When Phil Mickelson "runs-out-of-trail arm" pre-impact, then it can cause trail forearm pronation that can exaggerate the degree of counterclockwise roll of the lead hand through impact. The opposite can occur if a golfer uses a reverse-roll motion of the trail forearm/hand (+/- trail wrist circumductory roll) to decrease the degree of counterclockwise roll of the lead hand through impact. Here is Phil Mickelson performing a flop shot golf swing action where he deliberately uses a reverse-roll maneuver to keep the clubface from closing through impact.
Note that PM is supinating his trail forearm through impact and that helps to lower the clubface ROC through impact. If the trail wrist is circumducting at the same time, then it can also help to lower the clubface ROC through impact.
Jeff.
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