Pete Cowen's golf swing ideology

[imperfectgolfer]

Here is a video featuring Pete Cowen who expresses some of his opinions regarding how to perform a full golf swing action.





I don't disagree with his opinion that one should get the body motion correct and I don't disagree with his opinion that the clubshaft should be swung in front of the rotating body in a synchronous manner where the clubshaft is at a roughly ~45 degree angle relative to the ground (= swingplane) from ~P5 to ~ P8.

However, I obviously disagree with his opinions on the grip where he states that the lead hand and trail hand grips must match so that one can apply equal, but opposite, forces across the grip to ensure that the clubface "feels" stable during the downswing action and through impact. I also obviously disagree with his opinions on the trial arm motion where he uses the word "spinning" to refer to the motion of the trail arm between P4 => P7. He does imply that the golfer should be using a pitch elbow motion of the trail arm when he demonstrates what he means by "spinning", but I don't like his opinion about having the trail palm facing groundwards. I also do not agree with his opinion that a golfer should be "pressurizing" the clubshaft at impact.

It is interesting that many online golf instructors think that he is the world's greatest golf instructor, which says something about the state of online golf instruction.

Jeff.

[imperfectgolfer]

Here is another Andy Carter video where he has more to say regarding Pete Cowen's transition move.





He talks about the trail arm's pitch action move, but he also talks about two other "moves" related to the pivot motion.

The first pivot motion move he talks about is driving the trail shoulder down towards an aiming point just outside the trail foot - see the video between the 4:43 - 5:23 minute time point. Note that he talks about starting the transition with an upper body move. I have a major disagreement with this golf instructional "idea" because if a golfer starts the downswing with an upper body move where one drives the trail shoulder downwards towards that aiming point, it is very difficult to prevent the trail shoulder moving too much outwards and preventing the spine tilt moving towards leftwards spinal tilt (as seen in the OTT move). I therefore believe that it is much better to think of starting the downswing with a pelvis shift-rotation move and then allow the trail shoulder to move downplane secondarily as one acquires more secondary axis tilt and right lateral bend.

Consider Dustin Johnson's body pivot motion.

Image 1 is at P4, image 2 is at P4.25, image 3 is at P4.8, image 4 is at P5.2, and image 4 is at P6.

Note how he starts his pivot motion with a pelvic shift-rotation move that squares his pelvis by P4.8. Note that his trail shoulder is still much higher than his lead shoulder during the P4 => P4.8 time period.

Note that his pelvis is open at P5.2 and his mid-abdomen (yellow arrow) is pointing to the right of the target (towards first base) because his pelvis is leading the pivot's kinematic motional sequence. Note that he is secondarily acquiring more secondary axis tilt and right lateral bend between P5.2 => P6 and that allows the trail shoulder to move correctly downplane.

Another point that AC emphasizes is the "idea" of shifting the pelvis left-laterally so that the lead hip joint gets over the lead foot. That can represent too much pelvic shift, especially with a driver swing, and I think that a vertical line drawn vertically downwards from the lead hip joint should hit the ground inside the lead foot at impact. Watch AC's "real life" driver golf swing action in the video and you will note that his lead thigh is not vertical at impact and it is slanted slightly away from the target at impact - see the 10:35 and 11:14 minute time point of the video).

It is perfectly OK to have the outer border of the lead pelvis move over, or just outside, the lead foot when hitting a short iron because one is usually generating a more V-shaped hand path when hitting a short iron while one should be generating a more U-shaped hand path when hitting a driver.

Capture images of Dustin Johnson's hand arc path when hitting a driver and wedge.

Jeff.

[imperfectgolfer]

Consider this Danny Maude video featuring Pete Cowen





I have watched it a few times and I now think that PC's golf instructional philosophy has a lot in common with my DH-hand release action ideology.

When PC talks of spinning the trail forearm, I increasingly think that he does not imply that the trail forearm should be pronating. Watch the video between the 9:53 - 10:20 minute time point of the video when DM adopts a cack-handed grip - note how supinated his trail forearm is at impact and how he has a very extended trail wrist. PC also talks about a few other fundamentals of his golf instructional philosophy when he criticizes DM's golf swing action - i) the trail wrist must remain extended through impact and not straighten; ii) the trail palm must be driven through impact with no stalling of the motion of the hands through impact; iii) the pelvis must open up so that the arms/club can have an unrestricted motional pathway into the followthrough and iv) the left shoulder socket must move upwards.

All those features are what I personally advise for the optimum performance of a no-roll subtype of DH-hand release action.

Consider Jon Rahm's DH-hand release action.

Image 1 is at impact. Note that JR has a small degree of forward shaft lean. PC implies that it is the driving motion of the "spinning trail forearm" that creates that scenario of forward shaft lean by pushing the club handle forward. By contrast, I believe that it is the lead arm's motion that creates the condition of forward shaft lean where his bowed lead wrist makes it easier to ensure that there is forward shaft lean at impact. Note how open JR's pelvis is at impact and how he has elevated his lead shoulder socket - as recommended by PC. Can JR be applying a positive push-pressure against the aft side of the club handle at impact? I suspect that he could be applying push-pressure with his trail palm against the base of his lead thumb at PP#1 (which is above the coupling point) and that will help ensure that the lead hand keeps on moving actively through impact so that the lead arm can match the clubshaft from an angular rotational perspective, thereby ensuring that the clubshaft does not bypass the lead arm between P7 => P7.2. However, I do not believe that there is a significant amount of push-pressure being applied by the trail palm against the aft side of the club handle below the coupling point.

Here is Bertie Cordle's image of a positive hand couple scenario at impact.

In BC's scenario, the lead palm must be pushing against the club handle in an away-from-the-target manner while the trail palm is pushing the club handle below the coupling point towards the target. That will induce a counterclockwise rotation torque about the coupling point (see curved yellow arrows) and that represents a positive hand couple scenario.

What I envisage is likely happening in a DH-hand release action (eg. JR's hand release action) is a negative hand couple scenario - where the lead hand is still pulling the club handle targetwards (assisted by push-pressure being applied by the trail palm against the base of the lead thumb above the coupling point) and where the trail palm is applying a hand couple torque away from the target below the coupling point by ensuring that the trail wrist remains well extended through impact.

If PC would agree with me that he wants a negative hand couple scenario to exist at impact, then his golf instructional ideology wculd be very similar to mine.

Jeff.

[dubiousgolfer]

Dr Mann

The video below seems to show trail forearm pronation from P4 to at least P6 to me.


DG

[dubiousgolfer]

Dr Mann

I asked Tyler Ferrell about Pete Cowen's spinning trail arm move and why it didn't seem to reflect what is seen on Jon Sinclair's trail forearm supination/pronation graphs of the best 65 tour pro golfers, and this was his reply:

"I think the issue with the graphs is that it is influenced by the direct movement of the forearm as well as the relative movement of the forearm compared to the shoulder. The shoulder movement can change the way the forearm movement feels dramatically.
I think based on the original Pete Cowen video, "turn the forearm down" is a well coordinated movement combination of supination (but feeling like pronation), ulnar deviation (but feeling like extension), shoulder adduction, internal rotation, elbow extension, with scapular sliding down and around the rib cage.
If that's the case, then the graph matches the feel he's describing".

I then asked him the question below:

Do you agree with Dr Rousseau's opinion that the intent of that trail arm movement (even if you regard it as a feel) can create a pre-response kinematic sequence we normally see with pros and also generate the necessary grf patterns?

TF's reply:
"Yes, I saw many times how changing arm and wrist movement could have a positive impact on the kinematic sequence. I’d say the intent of both arms, not just the trail arm, have a big influence, but I’m okay with the claim".

----------------------------------------------------

What's your opinion on Chris Como's video below? Is it similar to Pete Cowen's spinning trail arm?



DG

[janik]

Hi gents,

I would like to add the below video to the discussion: from 10:50 Phil talks about rotating (pronating) his trail arm over to hit draws, while also claiming this minimises face rotation to hit what he calls a “softer draw”.

youtu.be/G4cgnuCMo7Y?si=X7OMndLAwJw2yx45

Personally, I am still not settled on the theory that one can have significant rotation of the lead forearm whilst maintaining minimum rotation of the trail. I am also not comfortable with the terms supination and pronation as technically it is relative to the elbow joint, whereas to me the rate of rotation is more important and not the absolute position.

Cheers
Janik

[imperfectgolfer]

Feb 14, 2024 18:54:12 GMT -5 dubiousgolfer said:

Dr Mann

I asked Tyler Ferrell about Pete Cowen's spinning trail arm move and why it didn't seem to reflect what is seen on Jon Sinclair's trail forearm supination/pronation graphs of the best 65 tour pro golfers, and this was his reply:

"I think the issue with the graphs is that it is influenced by the direct movement of the forearm as well as the relative movement of the forearm compared to the shoulder. The shoulder movement can change the way the forearm movement feels dramatically.
I think based on the original Pete Cowen video, "turn the forearm down" is a well coordinated movement combination of supination (but feeling like pronation), ulnar deviation (but feeling like extension), shoulder adduction, internal rotation, elbow extension, with scapular sliding down and around the rib cage.
If that's the case, then the graph matches the feel he's describing".

I then asked him the question below:

Do you agree with Dr Rousseau's opinion that the intent of that trail arm movement (even if you regard it as a feel) can create a pre-response kinematic sequence we normally see with pros and also generate the necessary grf patterns?

TF's reply:
"Yes, I saw many times how changing arm and wrist movement could have a positive impact on the kinematic sequence. I’d say the intent of both arms, not just the trail arm, have a big influence, but I’m okay with the claim".

----------------------------------------------------

What's your opinion on Chris Como's video below? Is it similar to Pete Cowen's spinning trail arm?



DG

Regarding that Andy Carter video - he does demonstrate a trail forearm motion between P5 => P6 that is in a pronatory direction that causes his trail palm to face the ground at P6 - see capture images below.

However, he is misrepresenting Pete Cowen by implying that PC wants to close the clubface relative to the clubhead path by P6.

Here are capture images of Pete Cowen demonstrating the "right forearm spinning" action at the start of AC's video.

Note that PC's trail palm is under the clubshaft in images 1, 2 and 3.

I have drawn a blue line down the middle of his trail antecubital fossa in images 3 and 4, and a red line along the trail lower forearm's radial bone. One can see that his trail forearm is supinated at P6 (image 3) and at P6.5 (image 4). Note that the toe of the club is pointing up at P6 and it is not closed relative to the clubhead path (as Andy Carter implies). PC's thenar eminence area of his trail palm is facing the ground at P6, but his "true" palm area (= area just proximal to the base of the 2nd, 3rd, 4th fingers) is facing skywards.

Regarding the Chris Como video, he talks of getting his trail palm to face groundwards, but it is not happening and at impact (see the 1:49 and 1:53 minute time point of his video) his trail forearm is still slightly supinated (but less than at P6.5). Jon Sinclair's trail forearm graphs show that there is a minimal degree of counterclockwise rotation of the trail forearm happening between P6.5 => P7 so that it is slightly less supinated at P7 compared to P6.5.

Chris Como is also wrong to say that he is squaring the clubface by rotating his trail forearm counterclockwise. CC is using a lead arm swinging technique and he is visually squaring his clubface via the standard PA#3 release action (which is biomechanically due to lead forearm supination). 

Jeff.

[dubiousgolfer]

Dr Mann

Why not use the term 'interdigital' palm area = 'area just proximal to the base of the 2nd, 3rd, 4th fingers'.


DG

[imperfectgolfer]

Feb 14, 2024 19:37:31 GMT -5 janik said:

Hi gents,

I would like to add the below video to the discussion: from 10:50 Phil talks about rotating (pronating) his trail arm over to hit draws, while also claiming this minimises face rotation to hit what he calls a “softer draw”.

youtu.be/G4cgnuCMo7Y?si=X7OMndLAwJw2yx45

Personally, I am still not settled on the theory that one can have significant rotation of the lead forearm whilst maintaining minimum rotation of the trail. I am also not comfortable with the terms supination and pronation as technically it is relative to the elbow joint, whereas to me the rate of rotation is more important and not the absolute position.

Cheers
Janik

I agree that Phil uses an active clockwise rotation of his trail forearm when he wants to hit a draw.

He usually has excellent timing, but not always as seen in the following animated gif.





Note how fast his lead hand is rotating through impact.

Jeff.

[imperfectgolfer]

Feb 14, 2024 21:07:07 GMT -5 dubiousgolfer said:

Dr Mann

Why not use the term 'interdigital' palm area = 'area just proximal to the base of the 2nd, 3rd, 4th fingers'.


DG

See the following image.

I could use the term "interdigital" but the hypothenar area of the palm is in the same plane as the interdigital area and the two areas represent the palm area involving the metacarpal area of the 4 fingers while the thenar area only represents the thumb metacarpal area (which can move independently towards the hypothenar area if the thumb is adducted and rolled inwards and away from the hypothenar area if the thumb is abducted and rolled outwards).

Jeff.

[dubiousgolfer]

Many thanks Dr Mann

DG

[dubiousgolfer]

Looks like some golf instructors are starting to look at 3D data and disputing Pete Cowen's spinning the trail forearm concept.



DG

[imperfectgolfer]

May 26, 2024 21:08:17 GMT -5 dubiousgolfer said:

Looks like some golf instructors are starting to look at 3D data and disputing Pete Cowen's spinning the trail forearm concept.



DG

I have noted that Zach used my custom-made version of Jon Sinclair's lead/trail forearm supination graphs.

I agree with some of his opinions, but I do not believe that the "arms get a free ride" simply as a result of the active pelvic rotation happening between P4 => P6 and I believe that the right shoulder girdle muscles must be very active in order to execute a necessary trail upper arm adduction maneuver between P4 => P5.5. I cannot fathom how it would be possible to maintain a ~90 degree angle of the trail elbow all the way down to P5.5 without performing an active trail upper arm adduction maneuver and it is necessary to maintain a desirable amount of clubhead lag to ~P5.5.

Jeff.