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Post by imperfectgolfer on May 7, 2011 23:23:58 GMT -5
Natep, What would cause the clubhead to pass the hands in the absence of a positive wrist torque? Here is Tutelman's diagram in the absence of wrist torque where the club is released by a CF force. Note that the clubhead never passes the hands before impact, or through impact. I could imagine the clubhead passing the hands post-impact if the left hand slows down after impact (during the followthrough). However, how could that increase clubhead speed at impact? When a world-class tennis player performs a back-handed tennis stroke action, do they allow the racquet to flip passed the hand after impact? I don't see that happening very often? How could it he helpful in terms of racquet speed at impact? I agree that Nicklaus' LAFW is slightly disrupted and that his rotating torso cannot keep up perfectly with the clubhead. However, his degree of flipping is small and it doesn't increase greatly in amount as the followthrough proceeds. When I look at most PGA tour golfers, they are rotating very well post-impact and the arms/clubshaft are roughly in front of their rotating torso post-impact and there is no marked asynchrony between their rotating torso and the rotating arm/clubshaft unit. As a rough approximation, the butt end of their club points at the mid-section of their rotating torso - as Annika Sorenstam demonstrates in this drill with a ball. In what sense is Annika's kinetic sequence inefficient considering that she turns her torso fast enough post-impact to keep the ball (and therefore rotating clubshaft) in front of her torso's mid-section? She is keeping her left hand moving very fast after impact and that prevents flipping? How would she benefit if she slowed her hands down after impact and allowed the club to flip passed her hands? Jeff.
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Post by natep on May 7, 2011 23:42:52 GMT -5
Jeff,
I dont know the reasons, I'm not a physicist. I'm just looking at evidence and using my own experience. But it seems reasonable to assume that letting the wrists hinge freely results in something truer to a double pendulum, as opposed to keeping the wrists frozen and having the entire left arm/club unit swing exclusively from the shoulder.
Consider this video of John Daly, specifically his release.
Is it purely coincidence that another of the longest hitters ever also has a "slap hinge release" ?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on May 7, 2011 23:44:03 GMT -5
Natep,
You wrote-: "You can say there is no science to support this release, yet Dunaway and Austin absolutely bombed it extraordinarily long. Woods was also bombing it past everyone back then, and was #1 in total driving for many years."
How can you rationally posit a cause-and-effect relationship between their flipping post-impact and their remarkable driving distances? There are many factors responsible for a golfer's ability to henerate high clubhead speeds at impact. To posit a cause-and-effect relationship between post-impact flipping and increased clubhead speed at impact, you have to answer the questions I posed in my last post.
Jeff.
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Post by natep on May 7, 2011 23:49:33 GMT -5
I'm basing my opinions on my own experience and on the words of several long drivers, like Austin, Dunaway, Sadlowski, etc. who all say that most of the clubhead speed is generated in the hands.
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Post by natep on May 7, 2011 23:55:01 GMT -5
I could imagine the clubhead passing the hands post-impact if the left hand slows down after impact (during the followthrough). However, how could that increase clubhead speed at impact? Because the left arm slowing down would allow for a greater transfer of energy into the club a la kinetic sequencing.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on May 7, 2011 23:56:06 GMT -5
Natep, You wrote-: "But it seems reasonable to assume that letting the wrists hinge freely results in something truer to a double pendulum, as opposed to keeping the wrists frozen and having the entire left arm/club unit swing exclusively from the shoulder." I think that you are mistaken to think that the left wrist is frozen if you note that the LAFW remains intact with a FLW after impact. I think that the left wrist is floppy and it remains flat because the left arm/forearm don't slow down after impact. Greg McHatton promotes the idea of very floppy wrists in his TGM swinging action, but he maintains a FLW throughout his followthrough and finish - because he never stops swinging his left arm actively through the post-impact phase of his swing action. Note that he has a bowed left wrist late in the followthrough - despite having very floppy wrists. That happens because his left arm/forearm never slows down. That's the basic principle of the double pendulum swing model where the CF-releasing club never bypasses the peripheral/passive wrist hinge joint - and the double pendulum swing model is essentially a floppy wrist model. You also wrote-: "Because the left arm slowing down would allow for a greater transfer of energy into the club a la kinetic sequencing." That's only applicable to a COAM model where there is a "fixed" amount of energy that is inputted into the system. However, note that the club releases perfectly efficiently in the double pendulum swing model without any slowing of the central arm. Note that the distance between the red dots doesn't increase as the club releases in the late downswing. The same principle applies to Greg McHatton's and Annika Sorenstam's swing -they are not slowing their hand motion as the club releases. Jeff.
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namj
Junior Member
Posts: 88
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Post by namj on May 8, 2011 0:02:11 GMT -5
You ever slap someone with your hand, what would hurt more a frozen wrist and lots of arm travel and a turning torso or a free hinging relaxed wrist with the same. I know what i'd rather be hit with.
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Post by natep on May 8, 2011 0:10:39 GMT -5
Jeff wrote:
"That's only applicable to a COAM model where there is a "fixed" amount of energy that is inputted into the system. However, note that the club releases perfectly efficiently in the double pendulum swing model without any slowing of the central arm."
Then why does the Pingman machine, which has no torque generator at the "wrists", have to slow down the central arm to release the club?
I think we can also both agree that 2d models are not perfect representations of the golf swing and have limitations.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on May 8, 2011 0:11:49 GMT -5
namj,
I know what you would rather be hit with - but that is not a rational argument based on sound mechanical reasoning. I believe that one doesn't keep the wrist "frozen" when swinging an intact LAFW. I believe that the wrist is freely hinged in a swinging LAFW unit - as Greg McHatton demonstrates in his video. It remains flat because the straight arm/forearm is moving faster than the hand. The hand will not flip passed the arm/forearm if they do not slow down.
Jeff.
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namj
Junior Member
Posts: 88
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Post by namj on May 8, 2011 0:15:13 GMT -5
It releases properly but is it optimal for power generation?
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namj
Junior Member
Posts: 88
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Post by namj on May 8, 2011 0:16:53 GMT -5
namj, I know what you would rather be hit with - but that is not a rational argument based on sound mechanical reasoning. I believe that one doesn't keep the wrist "frozen" when swinging an intact LAFW. I believe that the wrist is freely hinged in a swinging LAFW unit - as Greg McHatton demonstrates in his video. It remains flat because the straight arm/forearm is moving faster than the hand. The hand will not flip passed the arm/forearm if they do not slow down. Jeff. ? I was agreeing with you. And it's totally rational, it's a natural body motion that incorperates all the elements for power generation.
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Post by natep on May 8, 2011 0:23:40 GMT -5
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Post by imperfectgolfer on May 8, 2011 0:27:42 GMT -5
Natep, You asked a good question-: "Then why does the Pingman machine, which has no torque generator at the "wrists", have to slow down the central arm to release the club?" It is my understanding that the PingMan machine has to slow down the central arm to prevent the club from snapping after impact as it flips passed the central arm, and not to ensure a successful club-releasing phenomenon. According to the principle of the endless belt, if hand speed remains constant the club will automatically release as it passes around the end pulley. Note that the red object releases (peripheral end travels faster than the central end and covers a greater distance per unit time) when it goes around the end pulleys - even though chain speed remains constant. Jeff.
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namj
Junior Member
Posts: 88
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Post by namj on May 8, 2011 0:27:58 GMT -5
I have a headache now...lol.
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Post by natep on May 8, 2011 0:33:44 GMT -5
Except when we swing a golf club its not attached to a belt on a pulley.
How does that have anything to do with a golf swing??
Also, I read somewhere that the Pingman machine indeed has to slow down to release the club, and that this deceleration has to be calibrated depending on the club that is being swung. I'll try and find a link.
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