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Post by imperfectgolfer on May 5, 2011 9:54:32 GMT -5
Consider this thread at BM's golf forum. www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/15331-internet-junk-swing.htmlBrendan thinks that having a i) FLW, ii) forward shaft lean and therefore clubhead lag at impact, iii) generating an in-to-out clubhead path pre-impact is harmful to a golf swing. He's crazy! Of course, the other BM golf forum maniac, Lia, is equally crazy! He wrote-: "Great post, Brendan! Swinging left, swinging across the left leg, degrees of shoulders tilt/open--all of these were great fixes after I had become so proficient at doing the components you mentioned. The last piece was getting the tumble right because in my effort to swing more left, across my left leg, and get my shoulders more open and a touch flatter, I was throwing my hands too far out and laying it under! If I tumble the hands right, I can swing left, across the left leg, and tilt and rotate my shoulders right. So, he thinks that a golfer must learn to "tumble the hands right" so that one "can swing left, across the left leg". Once-upon-a-time, there was some rational golf swing advice available in that golf forum, but it has decreased markedly in rational quality since it has acquired a distinctive anti-TGM flavor. Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on May 5, 2011 11:40:38 GMT -5
You saw my reply right?
Look its like things have gone to far over there.
I like lots of the ideas but its almost like politics over there were one side is the "left" and the other side is the "right" and there is no common ground.
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don
New Member
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Post by don on May 5, 2011 14:12:36 GMT -5
It's only anti-TGM if your into TGM in the first place and people can believe what they want, if you go on L.B.'s forum you could say it's anti B.M. it's like this everywhere on the net, everyone has the answer and the next guy is always right or wrong.
TGM has lot's of mistakes in it and lot's of good things in it, lot's of regular golfer's have never even heard of it or even care about it. You need the Rosetta Stone to decipher it and even the experts on L.B's forum are always trying to figure it out. It's layout is a disaster for the average golfer to try and make heads or tails of it and most just get frustrated with it and let it gather dust on the bookshelf.
They rather go on the net and join forums or watch youtube videos looking for the "secret". JMO.
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Post by richie3jack on May 5, 2011 15:23:07 GMT -5
Yeah, I was apalled at Shields' response to Greg with regards to the 'swing or the golfer wins tourney' statement.
3JACK
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Post by gmbtempe on May 5, 2011 15:34:37 GMT -5
It's only anti-TGM if your into TGM in the first place and people can believe what they want, if you go on L.B.'s forum you could say it's anti B.M. it's like this everywhere on the net, everyone has the answer and the next guy is always right or wrong. TGM has lot's of mistakes in it and lot's of good things in it, lot's of regular golfer's have never even heard of it or even care about it. You need the Rosetta Stone to decipher it and even the experts on L.B's forum are always trying to figure it out. It's layout is a disaster for the average golfer to try and make heads or tails of it and most just get frustrated with it and let it gather dust on the bookshelf. They rather go on the net and join forums or watch youtube videos looking for the "secret". JMO. Isn't the point though they are not going out of the way to knock BM's ideas at LBG? They seem to at BM's, to the point of saying clubhead lag and a flat left wrist at impact are a bad thing. I am very open minded but I just cannot agree with those statements.
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Post by richie3jack on May 5, 2011 15:48:38 GMT -5
What I got out of Brendan's post was that with the internet golfers have gone from casting and flipping to the 'dark side' of TGM based instruction and have 'too much lag', too much shaft lean and are swinging too far out to the right.
My feeling is that it certainly exists today and probably is much more prevalent today than say 1997...it's still not all that prevalent and that most golfers...even the ones that follow golf instruction on the internet are still casting and flipping.
I do think too much shaft lean can be a bad thing. I also believe one can swing out to right field and wind up overdoing that. However, I generally think that lag is a good thing. I think some may focus too much on trying to 'force lag', but in general I think lag is important to hitting the ball better.
That being said, I agree with the poster that said you can over-do anything and have it be a negative.
I think if we did a check on how many times Manzella's forum has attacked LBG and company vs. how many times LBG's forum has attacked Manzella...there would be a tremendous disparity there.
3JACK
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don
New Member
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Post by don on May 5, 2011 15:55:19 GMT -5
It has more to do with overcooking a concept or not doing it right, that's how i read it. The op said it wasn't his intent to knock TGM, but whatever, i don't see it as a big deal. I have read worse.
There's always some over zealous people on both sides.
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don
New Member
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Post by don on May 5, 2011 16:02:44 GMT -5
I think if we did a check on how many times Manzella's forum has attacked LBG and company vs. how many times LBG's forum has attacked Manzella...there would be a tremendous disparity there.
@ Richie ,it doesn't matter the point is if anyone goes there and questions them they get attacked, I have read many posts there and it's the same on both forums regardless of the "score" and the "score" doesn't excuse the action does it.
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Post by gmbtempe on May 5, 2011 16:14:46 GMT -5
It has more to do with overcooking a concept or not doing it right, that's how i read it. The op said it wasn't his intent to knock TGM, but whatever, i don't see it as a big deal. I have read worse. There's always some over zealous people on both sides. Of course you can overdo it........I just don't see people overdoing clubhead lag or a flat left wrist on the range, or in swing video's posted at BM's, LBG, Richies, WRX, etc.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on May 5, 2011 16:42:19 GMT -5
I am not interested in the political dimensions of the BM versus LB issue.
I am only interested in sound golf biomechanics/mechanics and it is extremely sound to have a FLW at impact, whether you understand TGM concepts, or not.
3jack wrote-: "I do think too much shaft lean can be a bad thing. I also believe one can swing out to right field and wind up overdoing that. However, I generally think that lag is a good thing. I think some may focus too much on trying to 'force lag', but in general I think lag is important to hitting the ball better."
It is obviously true that too much forward shaft lean at impact is a bad thing - because that will often result in push/push-sliced shots due to an open face. However, one needs a FLW at impact, which means that i) there must be a certain amount of lag at impact and ii) that there is a certain amount of forward shaft lean at impact. If the left wrist bends at impact, that's an unacceptable state of flipping.
Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on May 5, 2011 16:57:47 GMT -5
I am not interested in the political dimensions of the BM versus LB issue. I am only interested in sound golf biomechanics/mechanics and it is extremely sound to have a FLW at impact, whether you understand TGM concepts, or not. Jeff. anti TGM, BM, LBG, Richies site, etc The are intertwined, I am not sure they actually believe what some of them are writing but there is so much animosity towards the other side that they are taking a somewhat "curious" approach to anything that resembles basic tenants of TGM.
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don
New Member
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Post by don on May 5, 2011 17:02:00 GMT -5
It has more to do with overcooking a concept or not doing it right, that's how i read it. The op said it wasn't his intent to knock TGM, but whatever, i don't see it as a big deal. I have read worse. There's always some over zealous people on both sides. Of course you can overdo it........I just don't see people overdoing clubhead lag or a flat left wrist on the range, or in swing video's posted at BM's, LBG, Richies, WRX, etc. You don't see it doesn't mean people aren't trying to and it could cause other problems if they do it wrong , that's what I was referring to. They overcook it but in a wrong way.
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spike
Junior Member
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Post by spike on May 5, 2011 23:43:54 GMT -5
From B.M. some answers to posters.
One of the most important threads in internet history..... The thesis, BrendanC thinks the following things—taught about on many a golf instruction website—can be over done.
Originally Posted by BrendanC Ideas that can hurt: 1) The Flat Left Wrist. I was very into this. I have the flattest left wrist you ever saw. But I didn't start improving again—after years of going backward—until I practiced bending my left wrist through impact.
Quite simply, I had overdone it.
How?
I had no "free wheeling" clubhead>wrists>arms.
Why?
Because I thought I could "sustain impact."
Now where did I get that idea from???
YOU CAN OVER DO KEEPING YOUR LEFT WRIST FLAT.
Originally Posted by BrendanC 2) Forward lean. I was striving for a LOT of forward lean; really wanted to make sure my hands were ahead of the ball at impact. Combined with hitting the "inside-aft quadrant of the ball, I got to where I couldn't get a long iron AIRBORNE.
YOU CAN OVER DO KEEPING FORWARD LEAN.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on May 6, 2011 9:34:59 GMT -5
BM wrote-: "I have the flattest left wrist you ever saw. But I didn't start improving again—after years of going backward—until I practiced bending my left wrist through impact.
Quite simply, I had overdone it.
How?
I had no "free wheeling" clubhead>wrists>arms.
Why?
Because I thought I could "sustain impact."
Now where did I get that idea from???
YOU CAN OVER DO KEEPING YOUR LEFT WRIST FLAT."
That's only because Brian doesn't understand the swinging of the LAFW. Brian incorrectly believes that one needs to "manufacture" a FLW at impact using negative wrist torque in order to "sustain impact". I believe that one creates an intact LAFW in the early backswing and one then swings the intact LAFW through impact. If one has an intact LAFW, then one doesn't have to artificially create a FLW for impact. I also don't believe that one can "sustain impact". Impact is simply a moment in time when the swinging LAFW and clubhead is passing through impact.
Brian wrote-: "YOU CAN OVER DO KEEPING FORWARD LEAN.
Of course, one shouldn't overstress the shaft in the change-of-directions. One also shouldn't overdo the amount of forward shaft lean at impact. The amount of forward shaft lean at impact is dependent on the inbuilt shaft lean present in a golf club - when the sole is correctly placed on the ground so that the leading and back edges of the sole are flat on the ground. That determines ball position - the ball should be positioned so that the club will have the 'correct" amount of forward shaft lean at impact when the hands are just inside the left thigh. Then, one simply has to time one's downswing action so that the hands reach that point at impact. Any attempt to exaggerate the degree of forward shaft lean can only lead to unnecessary complications.
Brian wrote-: "Are you trying to hit a huge hook?
Then don't try to do this.
Unless it works for you.
Hit the back of the ball like the great players have told us for 600 years.
Except for a couple of guys....
Maybe IT worked for THEM.
YOU CAN OVERDO HITTING THE INSIDE OF THE BALL."
One should only be aiming 1 dimple inside the center-of-the-back of the ball when thinking of coming from the inside. That's functionally equivalent to hitting the back of the ball. Many people have misinterpreted the idea of hitting the inside quadrant of the ball.
Brian wrote-: "PORK CHOPS VS. BACON STRIPS.
Fluffy divots vs. Shinny divots.
See "The U-Plane" or "The Resultant Path."
Yikes.
YOU CAN OVERDO HITTING THE BALL ON THE WAY DOWN."
Homer Kelley never advocated producing pork chop divots.
Brian wrote-: "Forward lean is 1,000,000 times more important than lag.
And too much of it, is no good either."
Forward shaft lean implies a certain quantitative amount of lag, and too much forward shaft lean implies too much lag. Forward shaft lean cannot be 1,000,000 more important than lag because they are conceptually the same thing.
Brian also wrote-: "And without TrackMan, you are stone cold guessing."
Of course one is guessing, but it not too difficult to guess correctly based on one's ball flight - if one hits the ball at, or near the sweetspot.
Jeff.
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Post by aimsmithgolf on May 6, 2011 13:17:28 GMT -5
Love the comment from BM about Trackman.... I wonder if he owns/leases/is paying for one.??
Rand
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