don
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Post by don on May 6, 2011 19:02:49 GMT -5
Don - you wrote-: "There's more variables than the one's you mentioned and in conjunction with a qualified instructor it's waaaaayyyy better than guessing where to loooookk." That's a nonsensical statement. A rational golf instructor knows where to look when trying to assess the clubhead path and clubface orientation at impact - when analysing a Casio-based (or Konica SwingVision-based) slow motion swing video. The only problem is that his "looking" is obviously not going to be as precisely accurate as Trackman readings - when it comes to accurately establishing the clubhead path and clubface orientation at impact. Jeff. Guessing is guessing and your guessing. There are more variables to know to make the right decisions as to the instruction to give a certain golfer, less guessing, less time wasted, less frustration. Sometimes less is more, get it.
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spike
Junior Member
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Post by spike on May 6, 2011 19:07:37 GMT -5
Spike - you wrote-: "Not can, do exist, provide visual proof of the clubface changing orientation for the various Hinge actions in the zone like Brian asked for in the debate." You cannot have watched the debate very carefully - because I never asserted that hinging actions can change clubface orientation at impact. I only asserted that hinging actions exist in the followthrough phase of the swing. Jeff. That's funny and Why didn't you just tell Brian that in the debate why all the fuss then? I doubt that was what you were trying to imply as you made posts saying more than that earlier on another forum.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on May 6, 2011 19:09:59 GMT -5
Don - No, I do not get it.
I only get the "fact" that your style of reasoning is woefully vague when I read the following sentence-: "There are more variables to know to make the right decisions as to the instruction to give a certain golfer, less guessing, less time wasted, less frustration. Sometimes less is more, get it."
If you have any evidence that using Trackman has any advantages other than giving more precise values for clubhead path/clubface orientation angles/clubhead attack angle at impact - then present your "evidence"?
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on May 6, 2011 19:15:21 GMT -5
Spike - you wrote-: "That's funny and Why didn't you just tell Brian that in the debate why all the fuss then? I doubt that was what you were trying to imply as you made posts saying more than that earlier on another forum."
I did state that "fact" in my debate with Brian.
Don't badger me with evidence-unsupported allegations - by stating that I have made posts "saying more than that on another forum". I have never in this forum, or 3jack's forum, asserted that hinging actions change the clubface orientation angle during impact.
Jeff.
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don
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Post by don on May 6, 2011 19:17:09 GMT -5
Quote Jeff said: If you have any evidence that using Trackman has any advantages other than giving more precise values for clubhead path/clubface orientation angles/clubhead attack angle at impact - then present your "evidence"?
Do I need anymore than what you posted, thanks.
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spike
Junior Member
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Post by spike on May 6, 2011 19:20:38 GMT -5
Spike - you wrote-: "That's funny and Why didn't you just tell Brian that in the debate why all the fuss then? I doubt that was what you were trying to imply as you made posts saying more than that earlier on another forum." I did state that "fact" in my debate with Brian. Don't badger me with evidence-unsupported allegations - by stating that I have made posts "saying more than that on another forum". I have never in this forum, or 3jack's forum, asserted that hinging actions change the clubface orientation angle during impact. Jeff. Then what purpose do hinge actions serve if they don't affect the clubface angle or change anything with the ball flight.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on May 6, 2011 19:28:15 GMT -5
Spike - you wrote-: "Then what purpose do hinge actions serve if they don't affect the clubface angle or change anything with the ball flight."
You are obviously ignorant of the fact that this "issue" has been previously debated in this forum. Many forum members have come to understand that to perform a particular hinging action (after impact) that a golfer has to change his pre-impact biomechanical motions involving the left/right arm and that those pre-impact changes have an effect on clubface orientation angle at impact, and therefore on ball flight.
Jeff.
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spike
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Post by spike on May 6, 2011 19:32:21 GMT -5
Spike - you wrote-: "Then what purpose do hinge actions serve if they don't affect the clubface angle or change anything with the ball flight." You are obviously ignorant of the fact that this "issue" has been previously debated in this forum. Many forum members have come to understand that to perform a particular hinging action (after impact) that a golfer has to change his pre-impact biomechanical motions involving the left/right arm and that those pre-impact changes have an effect on clubface orientation angle at impact, and therefore on ball flight. Jeff. Don't badger me with evidence-unsupported allegations - by stating that I have made posts "saying more than that on another forum". I have never in this forum, or 3jack's forum, asserted that hinging actions change the clubface orientation angle during impact. Jeff. What? You just said the opposite a couple of posts before and you just said it on this forum in your last post. Forget it.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on May 6, 2011 19:42:38 GMT -5
Spike stated-: "What? You just said the opposite a couple of posts before. Forget it."
Like Jeffy, Spike is clueless about TGM mechanics. I stated that hinging actions don't affect the clubface orientation during impact. That fact is true because hinging actions only start at impact, and they cannot have any significant effect on the clubface orientation angle during the impact interval (time period when the ball is in contact with the clubface). However, I have previously posted in this forum the "fact" that the right forearm paddlewheeling motion is very different pre-impact when preparing to use a HH action (versus an AH action) and that it can affect the pre-impact orientation of the FLW, and therefore clubface, just before impact.
I will no longer respond to Spike (who is a Jeffy-clone) because he is only trying to badger me - without contributing any deep golf instructional insights that can be helpful to forum members.
Jeff.
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don
New Member
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Post by don on May 6, 2011 19:52:40 GMT -5
That makes no sense Jeff. It is like Brian said in the debate in that zone he described about 16-18 in on either side the clubface orientation doesn't change very much and at that time you were trying to make a different argument.
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don
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Post by don on May 6, 2011 19:55:24 GMT -5
Brian said in full swings no one could produce what you claim about hinge actions.
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Post by aimsmithgolf on May 6, 2011 20:16:00 GMT -5
don and spike,
Most of us know the qualifications of Jeff Mann and Brian Manzella but what about you guys? What qualifies you to discuss in anyway anything about golf on the level of Jeff or Brian? Are you instructors? Where is your body of work on these subjects. How long have you played golf? Just give us anything that would give some merit to your opinions please. Then anyone reading this can get a clearer picture of this debate.
Rand
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Post by aimsmithgolf on May 6, 2011 20:19:14 GMT -5
Brian said in full swings no one could produce what you claim about hinge actions. This is an example. HUH? Do you know Brian? What do you base this statement on? "Brian says" ... anyone could just say: So what? Rand
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spike
Junior Member
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Post by spike on May 6, 2011 20:27:45 GMT -5
don and spike, Most of us know the qualifications of Jeff Mann and Brian Manzella but what about you guys? What qualifies you to discuss in anyway anything about golf on the level of Jeff or Brian? Are you instructors? Where is your body of work on these subjects. How long have you played golf? Just give us anything that would give some merit to your opinions please. Then anyone reading this can get a clearer picture of this debate. Rand Are you serious? One cannot offer opinions, how's bullet doing? Do we need a body of work to debate opinions Other members warned me about how if you disagree with Jeff that Rand will come to his aid like his Mom. A lot of members here are fed up with this and you should consider the fact that Jeff is not infallible by a long shot. By the way what credentials are needed to have a forum like this?
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Post by neckbone on May 6, 2011 23:02:28 GMT -5
Since you guys want to talk about the debate so much, let's try to remember, if we don't mis-remember (Roger Clemens throwback) that neither side looked good at all. Jeff failed to get across any of his ideas (some of that had to do with Brian's interruptions, some of it had to do with the fact that Jeff couldn't explain his ideas in the debate format). Brian couldn't do anything except interrupt Jeff and say Zick said this and Zick said that, without any ability whatsoever to explain what it was that Zick had said.
In the absence of the petty arguments, I don't think any of this stuff is provable right now. Even with a slow motion camera, one cannot say what a particular body part is doing in space (rotating, moving laterally, to what degree of each, etc.) at a certain point in the swing, at least not with great accuracy.
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