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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 3, 2011 1:07:32 GMT -5
Natep,
Here is a list.
Mike Austin - Golf is Mental Imagery Mike Austin - Anatomy of the Golf Swing GIMI2- Mike Austin Austinology 1 Austinology 2 Austinology 3 Austinology 4 Mike Austin - Teaching the Pros Dan Shauger 1st Randy Quaid - Dead Solid perfect Mike Dunaway 2005 Mike Dunaway 1986. 515 Yards! Mike Austin's Secrets Fron the Game's Longest Hitter - Mike Dunaway.
You are free to believe that you understand MA's swing better than me - I am content to harbor my own personal beliefs about its underlying mechanics.
I wrote a review paper on "right arm swinging" and if you believe that one can drive long distances with a similar right arm swinging technique, then you are free to harbor that subjective opinion.
Jeff.
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Post by natep on Dec 3, 2011 1:17:44 GMT -5
Thats a great collection, theres a few in there I havent seen before. I will try to explain once more and maybe you might understand.
You know the feeling in a normal swinging action when you release the club, and at that point you stop putting any force or guidance or anything on the club and its just a free-wheeling, free-moving, accelerating object? Imagine swinging in such a way that instead of this happening right before impact, this happens near the beginning of the downswing. The clubhead is not casted, it retains its lag, but the entire left arm/right arm/club unit becomes a free-wheeling, free-moving, accelerating object for most of the downswing, instead of right at the end. All the force, effort and guidance that will be exerted on the club happens it the first 25% of the downswing then its over. Thats the feeling of it and thats the best way I can explain it.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 3, 2011 1:34:29 GMT -5
Natep, I can understand your description and it fits in perfectly with my concept of a TGM swinging action using an intact LAFW. I think that a TGM swinger only holds the power package intact in the early downswing and first part of the mid-downswing, and then once PA#4 starts to unload, one let's go so that "entire left arm/right arm/club unit becomes a free-wheeling, free-moving, accelerating object for most of the downswing". One can clearly see that happening in Rickie Fowler's swing. Here you can see how he his "entire left arm/right arm/club unit becomes a free-wheeling, free-moving, accelerating object for most of the downswing." However, he doesn't bend his left wrist after impact and he keeps the LAFW intact after impact - because he uses a full roll hand release action (like Mike Austin) where the right wrist straightens under the club. I think that he is also using a right arm throw action - like Mike Austin. Jeff.
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Post by natep on Dec 3, 2011 1:39:36 GMT -5
Well, then I agree with what you're saying (maybe, those pictures are only showing the bottom of the downswing, I'm talking about free-wheeling for 75% of the downswing) , but thats not TGM swinging as I understand it per the book.
That also explains why the pivot just puts you into position to hit, because once you throw it from the top theres nothing the pivot can do. It cant pull or push a free moving, accelerating object. Like Austin said "if you try to keep up with the clubhead, you're dead."
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 3, 2011 2:00:13 GMT -5
Natep, You wrote-: "That also explains why the pivot just puts you into position to hit, because once you throw it from the top theres nothing the pivot can do." I strongly disagree. The pivot is critical in releasing PA#4 with maximum efficiency and it occurs before the power package starts to unravel, and it happens between P4 and P5.5. A TGM swinger, like MA/RF, may "feel" that he is throwing the right arm from the top, but slow-mo swing videos show that the right elbow only starts to straighten after P5.5/P6, and that the first part of the right arm throw action involves a right arm adduction maneuver where the right elbow remains fully bent. Here is MA performing his right arm throw action. Note that his right arm is bent to the same degree at P6 as it was at P4, and that the first part of the right arm throw action involves only the right upper arm being adducted so that the right elbow gets driven to its pitch location - that represents MA's side-throw action. Here is the classic series of MA-swing images from a full swing. Note that he still a bent right elbow at ~P6 (first image in the lower row). Note that he looks like RF in image 9 - straightened/flattened right wrist moving under the shaft with the left wrist still relatively flat. I think that he is using his pivot action to unload PA#4 in the last two top images - between P4 and P5.5. I think that the "free-wheeling" starts at P5.5. Jeff.
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Post by natep on Dec 3, 2011 2:08:21 GMT -5
Those pictures of Austin demonstrating the right arm throw are not actual golf swings and cannot be used as evidence of what he did in his swing. The second images are him making a practice swing with a flammer on and are also not evidence of much.
Plus I never said the right arm straightens immediately on the downswing. The earlier and more you tilt the longer the right arm can stay bent, but the pivot is not pulling the power package down to impact. The "PP" is thrown into free motion in the very beginning of the downswing.
Also, Austin gets into pitch elbow because he takes the club back inside, lifts up and takes it across the line, then throws it back behind him severely shallowing the shaft (or reverse tumbling if you wish) and coming in from what most would call "underplane". (Dunaway does this too) Hence his "under, up and out" vs. the "over,down, and across" that he was so adamantly against. He is not tracing the targetline with flashlights if you know what I mean.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 3, 2011 12:13:10 GMT -5
Natep,
You wrote-: "The "PP" is thrown into free motion in the very beginning of the downswing."
If that were true, then the distance of his hands from his right shoulder socket should increase immediately at the start of the downswing. I don't see that happening. I think that it only starts between P4.5 and P5, and I believe that his pivot is increasing his loading of PA#4 between P4 and P4.5, and he then unloads PA#4 starting at about P4.5 - P5, and that is when he starts his right arm throw action. However, by then, his pivot action has already kick-started his left arm motion which moves the left hand forward, and the left hand pulls the grip end of the club. He may not be consciously aware of the left hand pulling the club because it is due to the pivot action.
I will take your opinions much more seriously if you can hit 360 yards drives using a piece of non-taut rope, instead of using your left arm - considering that you claim that you can drive 360 yards using the MA swing technique, which you claim is a pure right arm swinging technique not involving the pivot-induced release of PA#4.
Jeff.
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Post by natep on Dec 3, 2011 12:18:03 GMT -5
Non-taut rope? Thats ridiculous. The rope would remain taut. I didnt say I could hit it 360 with a piece of rope. And I never said its a pure right arm throw. Where do you get this stuff?? Its a back-throw with both arms/hands at the start of the downswing.
I agree that the pivot does do something as far as providing power, but its mostly an assistant force. The primary role of the pivot is positioning the body for an unimpeded release of the clubhead via the hands. Austin thought the pivot was 20% of the power, the other 80% was in the "hunds", as he would say. At least thats what he wanted the student to feel and that how he taught it. Even thought the pivot might be pulling on the left arm some via the shoulder, the golfer wont feel any left arm pulling on the grip.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 3, 2011 12:48:26 GMT -5
Natep, Here is additional evidence, which I think is more definitive. Images 1,2, 3 are face-on views, images 4 and 5 are DTL views and image 6 is an upline view of his rope swing. Note that the rope remains taut throughout his early downswing and even during part of his mid-downswing. Note that this is only possible if his left elbow is moving away from his right hand (which is biomechanically due to the pivot action) faster than the right hand is being thrown forward by his right arm throw action. Note how much upper torso rotation he has between image 1 and image 3 - which is moving his left shoulder socket forward, which causes the left upper arm to be pulled forward. That represents the pivot-induced release of PA#4. His right arm throw action only allows his right hand to keep up with his pivot-induced release of PA#4. Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 3, 2011 13:01:11 GMT -5
Natep,
You wrote-: "I agree that the pivot does do something as far as providing power, but its mostly an assistant force. The primary role of the pivot is positioning the body for an unimpeded release of the clubhead via the hands. Austin thought the pivot was 20% of the power, the other 80% was in the "hunds", as he would say. At least thats what he wanted the student to feel and that how he taught it. Even thought the pivot might be pulling on the left arm some via the shoulder, the golfer wont feel any left arm pulling on the grip."
All those bold-highlighted statements are incompatible with the fact that the rope remains taut - which means that the pivot-induced release of PA#4 (left upper arm) is occurring faster than any right handed throw action during the time period that the rope remains taut.
Jeff.
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Post by natep on Dec 3, 2011 13:01:20 GMT -5
Jeff wrote "Note that this is only possible if his left elbow is moving away from his right hand (which is biomechanically due to the pivot action) faster than the right hand is being thrown forward by his right arm throw action."
I disagree with this statement. There are several reasons the rope could remain taut, not just because the left side is pulling it taut by moving faster than the right hand. They could move together for the rope to remain taut. Or the throw could be keeping the rope taut.
Anyway, the main point is that Austin did not want the golfer pulling on the grip of the club and pulling it down towards the ball.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 3, 2011 13:22:06 GMT -5
Natep,
I recommend that you think more deeply before you comment.
Your statement that the rope could be taut due to the throw action can only be true if the right hand was moving away from the left elbow in a different direction. However, that is not happening! One can clearly see that the right hand and left elbow are moving in the same direction and that the distance between the right hand and left elbow is remaining constant.
Your second statement that they could be moving at the same speed is more rational, but the left elbow still has to lead to keep the rope taut. The rope would instantaneously become lax if the right hand moved even fractionally faster than the left elbow. The fact that the rope remains taut means that the right hand is keeping up with the leading left elbow (and not the other ay around), and that also means that the pivot-induced release of the left upper arm must be the major source of swing power and not the right arm throw action.
You also wrote-: "Anyway, the main point is that Austin did not want the golfer pulling on the grip of the club and pulling it down towards the ball."
I agree that a golfer should not pull the grip down towards the ball with the left hand - independently of the pivot action. The left arm should be propelled forward by the pivot action in an active pivot-action swing.
Jeff.
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Post by natep on Dec 3, 2011 13:28:09 GMT -5
Natep, Your statement that the rope could be taut due to the throw action can only be true if the right hand was moving away from the left elbow in a different direction. However, that is not happening! One can clearly see that the right hand and left elbow are moving in the same direction and that the distance between the right hand and left elbow is remaining constant. How can you know that the right arm throw wasnt pulling against the rope, keeping it taut?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 3, 2011 13:49:51 GMT -5
Natep,
You asked-: "How can you know that the right arm throw wasn't pulling against the rope, keeping it taut?"
It could be doing that for a short time period at the start of the downswing - because the right hand momentarily moves away from the target - between image 1 and image 2. However, that could not be a rational explanation for the rope being taut between image 2 and image 3, and it could certainly not explain why the rope is still taut in image 6 (roughly at the P6 position). Between P5 and P6, both the right hand and left elbow are moving forward and if the rope remains taut, then it means that the left elbow is leading the right hand.
Try an even better experiment - attach the rope to your left shoulder socket area as I demonstrate in my swing video.
I can only avoid keeping the string taut if I move my right hand faster than the pivot-action is pulling the string. That is how I know that I am a pure right arm swinger/hitter - where all the power comes from the right arm throw action. This is only possible if I use a reactive pivot action, and not an active pivot action. Whenever I use an active pivot action, the string remains taut when I perform my right arm throw action.
Jeff.
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Post by nmgolfer on Dec 3, 2011 14:03:13 GMT -5
Good discussion guys! I hope you two can respect each other as I see merit in both sets of opinions. natep I agree. The purpose of the rope in the austin demonstration at the top of the BS is to provide the stop or limit a left arm gripping the club serves. The toss of the right cannot move further away because of this restriction but the right hund toss would put tension on the rope as you suggest. I like this portion of the video because (although there is no club) it is the one armed Austin swing minus the inertia a club would introduce. <<<<Move to 1 minute 47 seconds>>> The point is then clearly made by Austin regarding the left shoulder.... don't pull it... don't drop it... let it do what it does in an underhunded toss! PS I wish these forums could handle youtube posting features
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