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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 12, 2011 23:29:51 GMT -5
Consider this 3jack thread started by Jeffy - featuring a KM student. richie3jack.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=3039Here are capture images from his before swing. Here are capture images from his after swing. Jeffy states that he has less clubface closure after impact in his after swing - and that's true. Jeffy then posits a cause and he states-: "because of reduced forearm roll and flip, as well as a fuller turn and better squat." I think that's BS! From my perspective, it demonstrates how we can view the same swing action, and perceive different swing faults. I believe that "reduced forearm roll and flip" is an effect (and not a cause) that is responsible for the fact that his clubface is less closed after impact in his after swing, but Jeffy has not provided a "biomechanical cause" for the difference in the degree of forearm roll/flipping through impact. He writes about a fuller turn and better squat as being "causes", but I know of no causal connection between those biomechanical phenomena and flip-rolling through impact. I agree with Jeffy about one point - a Trackman device cannot identify his swing faults. My own interpretation of this student's swing is as follows. Before swing. I believe that he essentially is a swing-hitter whose arms movements are totally disconnected from his pivot motion. I think that he has lot of right arm swing-hitting motion in his downswing and he essentially hits through the ball with his right arm. Because he has gifted timing, he achieves a square clubface at impact. However, he flips massively after impact because he is essentially throwing the clubhead at the ball with a right arm swing-hitting action. His pivot doesn't really pull his left arm (like a TGM swinger) and his pivot stalls at impact. He is essentially using a right arm swing-hitting action to hit across his stalled pivot motion at impact. After swing. He is now pivoting better, and there is better sense of his pivot pulling his left arm forward (like a TGM swinger). He still has too much right arm swing-hitting action through impact, but it is far less and he therefore can maintain a FLW/intact LAFW through impact. There is also less pivot stalling through impact. I still think that he has many swing faults and it is testament to his gifted timing that he can play at a level to be invited to the Sony Open. If I was his golf instructor, I would ensure that he follows the swing fundamentals of a TGM swinger, who essentially uses a pivot-induced release of PA#4 to power the swing, and I would try to eliminate his tendency to add a right arm swing-hitting action. Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 13, 2011 10:21:36 GMT -5
In that 3jack thread, cwdlaw223 is arguing that Trackman is essential to evaluate impact conditions - especially face angle and clubhead path. That's a rational suggestion, but this KM student has so many swing faults that he probably would not obtain consistent Trackman readings from faulty swing-to-faulty swing. A golfer who uses too much right arm in a swing-hitting manner will be prone to inconsistent clubface orientation at impact depending on the degree of right arm-induced flipping/rolling that occurs from swing-to-swing. He will also likely have an inconsistent smash factor due to off-center hits. Presuming that his Trackman readings of 20 consecutive swings shows inconsistent clubface orientation patterns and an inconsistent deegre of off-center striking, how does Trackman help a golf instructor identify and correct the swing fault? I think that Trackman is an useful tool - especially for skilled golfers who only have minor consistent errors in either clubhead path and/or clubface orientation at impact. I think that KM's student needs to correct his major swing faults first - before he fine-tunes his swing with a Trackman device.
Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Dec 13, 2011 10:31:10 GMT -5
In that 3jack thread, cwdlaw223 is arguing that Trackman is essential to evaluate impact conditions - especially face angle and clubhead path. That's a rational suggestion, but this KM student has so many swing faults that he probably would not obtain consistent Trackman readings from faulty swing-to-faulty swing. A golfer who uses too much right arm in a swing-hitting manner will be prone to inconsistent clubface orientation at impact depending on the degree of right arm-induced flipping/rolling that occurs from swing-to-swing. He will also likely have an inconsistent smash factor due to off-center hits. Presuming that his Trackman readings of 20 consecutive swings shows inconsistent clubface orientation patterns and an inconsistent deegre of off-center striking, how does Trackman help a golf instructor identify and correct the swing fault? I think that Trackman is an useful tool - especially for skilled golfers who only have minor consistent errors in either clubhead path and/or clubface orientation at impact. I think that KM's student needs to correct his major swing faults first - before he fine-tunes his swing with a Trackman device. Jeff. I do think its funny that you use the term "major" swing faults for a kid thats going to be playing in a pro event in a few weeks. I guess it shows that you can be an elite golfer with major faults........there is hope for my swing after all!
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Post by natep on Dec 13, 2011 11:31:22 GMT -5
Haha I was about to say the same thing. He's 15 and just qualified for a tour event. Its absolutely ridiculous to make statements about how this kid cant consistently put the the club on the ball.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Dec 13, 2011 12:43:24 GMT -5
Jeff-
You also mistook jeffy's comment about the squat: it is clear when you read his entire sentence that he was saying the better squat added distance. He doesn't say it changed the release.
Tom
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 13, 2011 13:05:47 GMT -5
I never stated that he cannot consistently square the clubface at impact. I specifically stated that he may have perfect timing that allows him to consistently square the clubface despite a right arm swing-hitting action that can predispose to flipping/rolling through impact. He may turn-out to be like Lee Westwood, who has the coordination skills to hit a golf ball perfectly despite having a tendency to be a right arm swing-hitter. I am simply stating that I regard a right arm swing-hitting technique as being a more complex technique that requires a greater degree of perfected timing to consistently execute well.
It is going to be exciting to see how he performs under the pressure of being a player in a PGA tour event.
Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Dec 13, 2011 13:18:31 GMT -5
I never stated that he cannot consistently square the clubface at impact. I specifically stated that he may have perfect timing that allows him to consistently square the clubface despite a right arm swing-hitting action that can predispose to flipping/rolling through impact. He may turn-out to be like Lee Westwood, who has the coordination skills to hit a golf ball perfectly despite having a tendency to be a right arm swing-hitter. I am simply stating that I regard a right arm swing-hitting technique as being a more complex technique that requires a greater degree of perfected timing to consistently execute well. It is going to be exciting to see how he performs under the pressure of being a player in a PGA tour event. Jeff. I think one would need more than a single tournament to make a conclusion.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 13, 2011 13:33:55 GMT -5
Greg,
I agree!
I actually think that it is going to take years to determine whether his personal swing technique works under the pressure of constant competition. The issue may become more complicated if there is any significant change in his swing technique, which may happen because he has already significantly improved his technique between the "before" and "after" swing videos.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 14, 2011 19:18:03 GMT -5
There is a big difference between Jeffy's KM-influenced thinking re: golf swing biomechanics/mechanics than my thinking. See this thread - richie3jack.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=3029&page=14Jeffy wrote-: "Let's start with what a player CAN use to square the clubface in the downswing (since every golfer rotates the arms clockwise in the backswing, opening the clubface from address): The forearms can be rotated counter-clockwise: for the left forearm, this motion is called supination; for the right forearm, pronation. The upper left arm can rotate counter-clockwise: this motion is called left shoulder external rotation and will cause the right forearm to appear to "roll over" the left forearm. The wrists can straighten, with the left moving toward a cupped position (left wrist extension) and the right wrist moving to a bent position (right wrist flexion); this is "flipping"." I believe that a golfer should NEVER use flipping to square the clubface. I believe that clubface squaring is purely a function of the release of PA#3, and as Jeffy correctly points out the degree of release of PA#3 needed to square the clubface depends one's grip strength (more correctly, it's the degree of internal rotation of the left humerus and degree of left forearm pronation) present at address. I think that one should never think of using any horizontal left wrist hinging motion to square the clubface. I believe that the left wrist should remain flat throughout the entire downswing action and that the LAFW should remain intact until at least P7.5. I think that Jeffy's (and KM's) lack of understanding of the LAFW concept is a major deficit in his understanding of golf swing mechanics. You can see this most clearly in KM's article on the hand release action - where the described differences are due to differences in wrist and forearm motion between P6.5 and P.7.5. I believe that there should be ZERO left forearm and ZERO left wrist hinging motion between P7 and P7.5, and that all differences in hand release patterns should be due to differences in left arm/pivot motion. Jeff.
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dhc1
New Member
Posts: 25
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Post by dhc1 on Dec 15, 2011 12:22:28 GMT -5
Jeff,
I didn't read that quote of Kelvin as saying that he prefers a flip but rather that it is conceivable to use one and that some pro players use this. I think he prefers drive-holding which isn't a flip.
do you disagree?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 15, 2011 15:19:02 GMT -5
dhc1
I agree. I don't think that KM prefers a pro-flipping action. I think that the pro-flipping type is simply a result of his observational method of classifying hand release actions. He simply observed that golfers sometimes pro-flip through impact.
Jeff.
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