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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 5, 2012 10:59:44 GMT -5
Consider this BM thread. www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/16617-revisiting-swinging-left.htmlBM states that one should swing left, and not aim left. I am confused! Look at this BM-produced diagram. I presume the yellow line is the ball-target line, and that the edge of the grey background represents a leftward-shifted plane line. If I am correct, then the blue line (which represents the clubhead arc path) is symmetrical to the ball-target line, and in-to-out relative to the grey edge. How does that produce a straight shot if the clubhead attack angle is negative? Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 5, 2012 12:05:46 GMT -5
Here is an interesting comment by Golfdad in this 3 jack's forum thread. richie3jack.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=3137&page=2"Alright guys, time to sacrifice family members in the name of science or art. Here is my older one's swing from the recent break. A little wimpy swing that works for her. She tends to hit pretty straight and when I shared with her with effusing enthusiasm that she has been doing it wrong, that she should hit left with irons and right with driver to get better, she looked at me as if saying, dad, please, you don't even play. Oh come on, you can't possibly trust Golf Digest more than your dad! So, tell me about her swing and why she has not done any swinging left or right because in our basement they don't have this advanced knowledge." She apparently hits the ball perfectly straight - without the advanced knowledge about "swinging left" for irons. I think that this belief that one needs to consciously "swing left" to hit the ball straight is a fallacy. I think that Hana should stick with what works for her - and she doesn't need to use Trackman, even though cwdlaw constantly implies it is necessary to become a good golfer. Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Jan 5, 2012 12:12:30 GMT -5
Here is an interesting comment by Golfdad in this 3 jack's forum thread. richie3jack.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=3137&page=2"Alright guys, time to sacrifice family members in the name of science or art. Here is my older one's swing from the recent break. A little wimpy swing that works for her. She tends to hit pretty straight and when I shared with her with effusing enthusiasm that she has been doing it wrong, that she should hit left with irons and right with driver to get better, she looked at me as if saying, dad, please, you don't even play. Oh come on, you can't possibly trust Golf Digest more than your dad! So, tell me about her swing and why she has not done any swinging left or right because in our basement they don't have this advanced knowledge." She apparently hits the ball perfectly straight - without the advanced knowledge about "swinging left" for irons. I think that this belief that one needs to consciously "swing left" to hit the ball straight is a fallacy. I think that Hana should stick with what works for her - and she doesn't need to use Trackman, even though cwdlaw constantly implies it is necessary to become a good golfer. Jeff. I don't think anyone needs a trackman to be a good golfer and figure things out, but if your struggling like I was and had good player after good player, several teachers telling me I was coming over the top and hooking the ball so I needed to swing out to right field, a trackman would have told me my path was probably 10 degrees right!
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 6, 2012 0:27:21 GMT -5
Look at this BM forum thread. www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR8fh9bOwiU&feature=g-upl&context=G28ffa84AUAAAAAAAAAALook at post #49. Kevin Shields stated that he doesn't think of swinging left, and Wulsy cannot see any "evidence" of "swinging left" in those capture images. So, where then is the "evidence" that a skilled golfer must swing left to hit the ball straight towards a target - as Kevin does in that video where the ball goes straight towards the flag? Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 6, 2012 10:20:43 GMT -5
Question for 3jack See your post#4 in this thread. richie3jack.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=3137&page=1You defined "swinging left" as the bottom arc pointing left of the target. Then you posted this video of MOG, who you believe is "swinging left". On what basis do you believe that his bottom arc is directed left-of-the-target. I think that all his divots are directed at the target, or maybe even slightly right-of-the-target. I agree that he is coming slightly OTT relative to his body, and that he is using a CP-arm release action, but that doesn't mean that the bottom arc is directed leftwards of the target. Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Jan 6, 2012 12:10:17 GMT -5
Question for 3jack See your post#4 in this thread. richie3jack.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=3137&page=1You defined "swinging left" as the bottom arc pointing left of the target. Then you posted this video of MOG, who you believe is "swinging left". On what basis do you believe that his bottom arc is directed left-of-the-target. I think that all his divots are directed at the target, or maybe even slightly right-of-the-target. I agree that he is coming slightly OTT relative to his body, and that he is using a CP-arm release action, but that doesn't mean that the bottom arc is directed leftwards of the target. Jeff. Denny has told me Mac divots ever so slightly left from the schools he attended. Now this is depending on the pattern employed but for a CP fade.
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Post by richie3jack on Jan 6, 2012 15:40:25 GMT -5
I haven't been paying attention to what Brian says because I have my own interpretation of 'swinging left' based on what Trackman was calling the 'horizontal swing plane' which they did define as the 'bottom arc of the swing.' I'm not saying Brian is right or wrong, I just didn't need to hear it because I basically understand the point.
I do know that since we are hitting the ball before the low point with the irons, the bottom arc has to be directed somewhere leftward in order for the path to be dead square to the target.
This has also been backed up by Trackman and their research.
As far as Mac goes, the camera angle there is not the best. I think if you look at p7.5 when the hands are past his body and just about at the same level as the gloves in his back pocket, the hands have gone quite a bit inward. I also believe that the shallower part of the divot would be directed more towards the target and the deeper part of the divot would go slightly left of the target. Also...let's say his bottom arc of the swing is 2* left of the target. That's not something that is extremely noticeable and a camera view can skew your perception.
I also think from a better DTL view you wouldn't think he was OTT with relation to his body.
3JACK
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Post by richie3jack on Jan 6, 2012 15:52:33 GMT -5
I think where Trackman is probably most useful is with attack angle measurement. I remember struggling a bit with too steep of an attack angle with the driver. Then a couple of weeks later I get up on Trackman and hit what looks like a dead perfect driver shot that was a little on the high side, trajectory wise and the attack angle was -4*. That's where I think ball flight can really fool you.
Secondly, I think it's great at helping the golfer with establishing a feel for whatever they are working on because if you have the right setup, you can hit a shot, look at the screen and see the numbers and then use that instant feedback and hit another shot are correct yourself. While I like the video camera, you have to hit a shot...stop the camera, view it on the camera and hope that the camera was positioned well, make your judgment on the swing...then start all over again.
As far as consciously swinging left, I don't think anybody *has to* do that in order to actually swing left and square up the path. I was experimenting with this the other day and came up with the feel of me in the follow thru having my hands 'swing on by' my left shoulder and I had some very nice looking swings on video and hit some tremendous shots. And many golfers already do it pretty well and may have an issue with their clubface control instead.
3JACK
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Post by gmbtempe on Jan 6, 2012 20:01:38 GMT -5
Yea that camera is slightly off, its outside and to the right which will make the swing look more left than it was.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 6, 2012 23:46:37 GMT -5
Greg, A non-optimum camera angle may produce a certain level of distortion in terms of assessing the degree that the hands move inside-left after impact. However, I am bothered by any attempt to define "swinging left" in terms of the movement of the hands inside-left after impact. I think that if the hands move inside-left faster, then it implies a CP-arm release (rather than a CF-arm release). However, that doesn't mean the bottom of the swing arc is directed more leftwards with a CP-arm release action (versus a CF-arm release action). Here is JE's well-known photo. Image 1 shows his ABS-swing's CP-arm release action and the second image shows a "dead hands" swinger's CF-arm release action. The ball is going equally straight in both photos, and therefore the impact conditions are presumably identical in both situations. That means that there is no causal connection between the degree of CP-arm release and the degree of leftwards displacement of the bottom arc. I suspect that 3jack is not taking this fact into account. Jeff.
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