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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 7, 2012 0:51:20 GMT -5
See this thread and video www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/16931-new-front9-video-rorys-key-move-brian-manzella.htmlHe claims that Rory is performing a key move to get his right hand from behind the club to on-top of the club. The short red line shows that his clubface is open to the clubhead arc as he approaches P6. Surely that "move" is the standard way the RFFW/right palm will move when the LAFW moves down the inclined plane. Where is the "evidence" that Rory is using any special key move? Also, how would that right arm action (that occurs between P5 and P6) close the clubface or prevent flipping through impact? Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Mar 7, 2012 0:58:10 GMT -5
I did not see it, seems like just a biased opinion. Where at in his swing, other than a guess, can we see going from pulling to pushing.
I don't disagree that it happens in a golf swing, just not sure how its a key move.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 7, 2012 1:06:53 GMT -5
Greg,
I have no idea where BM gets the idea that Rory is pushing. I think that Rory is a swinger, and I think that he is pulling throughout the downswing. He simply positions his RFFW correctly relative to the LAFW as his LAFW comes down the inclined plane in the mid-downswing. I remain baffled by BM's lack of elementary TGM knowledge.
BM states that Rory would go "underplane" if he simply pulled. That's BS! That will only happen if the right shoulder tilts vertically downwards and the RFFW moves incorrectly. If the right shoulder moves correctly downplane and the RFFW is correctly positioned (relative to the LAFW) then there should be no "underplane" problem.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 7, 2012 10:19:32 GMT -5
Here is another post by BM in that thread. "PHASE 1 - FORCE ALONG THE HAND PATH without your back turning too fast and re-locating your hands too far forward and putting your shoulder in a weak position to PULL. Pulling on the rope. PHASE 2 - TORQUE ABOUT THE COUPLING POINT - Pretty much what the Rory video was about. Remember the torque about the coupling point has a alpha (on the plane), beta (pitch to the plane), and gamma (about the shaft). Bending the rope so you can push and pull. PAHSE 3 - GOING NORMAL - You have this weight on the end of the rope that you need to throw about 45°-ish down the building you are standing on the edge of the roof on. You HAVE TO get this weight on the other side of you, therefore you pull inward at the end of the torquing phase. Pushing at this point is silliness. Pull the rope-end toward you hard-kiri/Mike Austin style." Regarding the red-highlighted statements. Now BM is stating that the push-force being applied below the coupling point must not only induce the release of the club (release of PA#2) but that it must rotate the club around its longitudinal axis. That only happens when a golfer releases PA#3, which happens between P6.5 and P7, and it does not happen during phase 2 of the downswing. Here is Hunter Mahan's downswing. Note that his club is releasing within the plane of the LAFW, and there is virtually no roll of the FLW/clubface during this stage of the downswing. Note that there is also no significant change in the pitch (beta) of the releasing club. Regarding the green-highlighted statement. Now BM is asserting that you need to "pull-in" (exert a normal force) in order to get the weight on the other side of you. Do you think that Hunter Mahan has to "pull-in" to get the clubhead outside his toe-line in the downswing. According to Nesbit, a normal force is needed to react to the centrifugal-loading of the club. In other words, a golfer has to generate a normal force when the club releases in order to control the hub path and keep the hands moving along the hub path during the club-releasing phase of the swing (between P6 and P7). The amount of normal force needed depends on the centrifugal-loading of the club, which mainly depends on the mass of the clubhead and clubhead velocity. The normal force progressively increases during the evolution of phase 3 of the downswing - because clubhead velocity progressively increases (even if Mclub and "r" remain constant). Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 8, 2012 0:18:14 GMT -5
Kevin Shields wrote-: "This a great video that illustrates some new concepts that upgrade Brian's long standing opinion of getting the club face to turn down early in the downswing and how one player, whether consciously or not, may go about doing that." Where is Rory's clubface turning down in his early downswing? Here is an image of Rory approaching the P6 position and his clubface is still open to the clubhead arc. His clubface is roughly parallel to the back of his FLW, which is an expected finding when one has an intact LAFW. Jeff.
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Post by natep on Mar 8, 2012 13:56:45 GMT -5
That red line is a complete joke.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 8, 2012 18:38:47 GMT -5
Natep wrote-: "That red line is a complete joke." Here is another early-mid downswing sequence from Rory McIlroy's driver swing. What it demonstrates is that Natep is a complete joke! He always demonstrates his habitual foolishness by routinely making rash comments unsupported by any "evidence". Jeff.
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Post by mchepp on Mar 8, 2012 19:43:33 GMT -5
Jeff,
While I am not sure it is a complete joke, it is not an accurate representation of his clubface. It appears much more closed than your red line indicates. Your red line makes it look very open which I do not agree that it is.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 9, 2012 0:02:25 GMT -5
mchepp,
You are free to believe that the red line is not accurately representative of his clubface orientation.
I harbor a different opinion. I drew the red line parallel to that white blurred line - which I believe is due to the lower edge of his clubface.
Rory has a FLW at his end-backswing position, and his clubface is perfectly parallel (straight-in-line) with the back of his FLW. He maintains a FLW throughout his downswing and therefore his clubface must remain perfectly parallel (straight-in-line) with the back of his FLW. Look at the angle of the back of his FLW when he approaches the P6 position. His clubface must be angled accordingly - any small difference in the two different photos is due to parallax distortion as a result of slightly different camera angles.
Secondary evidence - note that Rory's clubshaft is below the level of his right forearm as he approaches P6, and that the back of his FLW is therefore angled less vertically than Hunter Mahan's (whose clubshaft is inline with his right forearm as he approaches P6 - see image 2 of the Mahan sequence). That explains why Hunter's clubface orientation angle is slightly less open to the clubhead arc at that same time point - because the back of his FLW is less horizontally slanted and it is slightly more vertical (because he has supinated his left forearm more at that time point).
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 9, 2012 10:02:24 GMT -5
mchepp, Look at image 4 of this photo sequence. Note that you can clearly see the logo on his left hand glove. That demonstrates how flat his FLW is angled at that time point. Look at that "white glint" on his clubhead - where light catches the lower edge of his clubface. That "white glint" is parallel to the back of his FLW. Do a simple experiment - Use a neutral grip, and make sure that your left wrist is flat at that same near-P6 position with your clubshaft angled shallowly below your right forearm and then look at how open your clubface will be at that time point. It should look exactly like Rory's if you have a FLW. I am still waiting for you to defend this statement - "It appears much more closed than your red line indicates. Your red line makes it look very open which I do not agree that it is" - with some factual "evidence". Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 9, 2012 10:15:17 GMT -5
This is what Dariusz wrote in the BM-forum thread today. "Actually, this is what I consider as late Hogan's biggest microscale secret -- pitch elbow converting into punch elbow, if we need to use this imprecise TGM terminology. Brilliant concept assuring perpendicularity of the distal part to the spine and, simultaneusly, humera working together with main body action in the crucial part of the downswing." How is it possible to convert a pitch elbow motion into a punch elbow motion? Where is the "evidence" of a punch elbow motion in Hogan's downswing? How does it assure perpendicularity of the distal part of the spine (whatever he means by distal)? What's the causal connection? Jeff.
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Post by richie3jack on Mar 9, 2012 10:55:18 GMT -5
Yeah, I think Dariusz got pitch and punch elbow mixed up. And even still, it doesn't make much sense.
3JACK
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Post by mchepp on Mar 9, 2012 18:32:34 GMT -5
I don't have a good video of the driver but this is the 3wood and I have to say it looks quite different than your red line. I got the screenshot from this video. Attachments:
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Post by mchepp on Mar 9, 2012 18:36:02 GMT -5
From the same video. Sorry for 2 posts but I can only put 1 attachment per post in. Let me add. I am not supporting anything Mr. Manzella says, but only disagreeing with the face position Jeff states from the original photo. I did not even read the forum post on Mr. Manzella's site because one can only take in so much internet golf information in one day. Attachments:
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 9, 2012 22:06:46 GMT -5
mchepp,
You are making a fundamental mistake.
You have posted a capture image from the P6 position where the back of the FLW has rotated so that it is now parallel to the ball-target line. Then, the clubface will also become parallel to the ball-target line - if the left wrist remains flat. My capture image (image 4 of the Rory sequence) was captured before he reached the P6 position - when the back of the FLW was still parallel to the shallow mid-downswing inclined plane on which his clubshaft descended between the P4 position to the P6 position. There is a ~45 degree rotation of the FLW between my capture image and your capture image - and that accounts for the ~45 degrees counterclockwise rotation of the clubface between my capture image and your capture image.
There is another fact about your chosen video - note that his clubshaft is inline with his right forearm just before he reaches the P6 position, which means that he didn't drop the club underplane as he often does when he wants to hit a draw. In this swing video, he came down a steeper inclined plane (like Hunter Mahan) and he hit a fade.
Jeff.
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