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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 9, 2012 22:50:42 GMT -5
Here is a comparison of two Rory McIlroy swings. Image 1 is from the 3-wood video that mchepp posted. Image 2 is from another driver swing. Rory always maintains a FLW in his downswing - so his clubface will always be parallel (straight-in-line) with the back of his FLW. Note that his FLW is angled steeper in image 1 compared to image 2 - so his clubface must accordingly be angled steeper (and appear to be less open to the clubhead arc). I am amazed that so many golfers do not understand the direct alignment-relationship between the clubface angle in the mid-downswing and the angle of the back of the FLW relative to the ground. If a golfer (who uses a neutral left arm/neutral grip) maintains a FLW throughout his downswing action, then the back of the FLW and clubface must always be inline. If the back of the FLW is more horizontal (less steep) in the mid-downswing (between P5 and P5.7) - then the clubface must also be more horizontal (less steep). Jeff.
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Post by mchepp on Mar 9, 2012 23:31:54 GMT -5
mchepp, You are making a fundamental mistake. You have posted a capture image from the P6 position where the back of the FLW has rotated so that it is now parallel to the ball-target line. Then, the clubface will also become parallel to the ball-target line - if the left wrist remains flat. My capture image (image 4 of the Rory sequence) was captured before he reached the P6 position - when the back of the FLW was still parallel to the shallow mid-downswing inclined plane on which his clubshaft descended between the P4 position to the P6 position. There is a ~45 degree rotation of the FLW between my capture image and your capture image - and that accounts for the ~45 degrees counterclockwise rotation of the clubface between my capture image and your capture image. There is another fact about your chosen video - note that his clubshaft is inline with his right forearm just before he reaches the P6 position, which means that he didn't drop the club underplane as he often does when he wants to hit a draw. In this swing video, he came down a steeper inclined plane (like Hunter Mahan) and he hit a fade. Jeff. I understand your point about the point in question being before P6. From that perspective yes I agree that the face will appear more open. But it is still more closed than your original red line. So my observation is more open yes, but still more closed than your original red line.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 10, 2012 1:05:33 GMT -5
mchepp, You wrote-: "But it is still more closed than your original red line." Please explain where you can perceive a significant difference in the clubface angle (in terms of the degree of openess of the clubface) in this next image and the 2nd image of the next photo (where Rory is also using a driver and where I have also drawn a red line that is parallel to the clubface)? I think that they are near-identical - and any small difference is due to a small difference in camera angle and the fact that the clubshaft is more underplane (relative to the right forearm), and more horizontal (relative to the ground) in the first image. Jeff.
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Post by mchepp on Mar 11, 2012 23:29:35 GMT -5
Jeff, I found another video, with a slightly better view of the head. Still I see it more closed than you. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Attachments:
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 12, 2012 8:56:51 GMT -5
mchepp, We obviously disagree! If you think that your red line represents reality, then you do not understand golf swing mechanics/biomechanics - because the clubface has to be parallel to the back of his FLW if he has a flat left wrist. Here is a capture image from his start-down. Note that his clubface is parallel to the back of his FLW. If you can explain how his clubface can become non-parallel to the back of his FLW by the P5.5 position if he still maintains a flat left wrist, then I would like to read you explanation. Here is a capture image of a close-up his clubhead. Note that the lower edge of the clubface (between the silver area of the bottom of the clubhead and the black area) is parallel to the back of his FLW. Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Mar 12, 2012 14:03:37 GMT -5
Jeff, This statement is full of holes "because the clubface has to be parallel to the back of his FLW if he has a flat left wrist." Attachments:
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 12, 2012 15:56:00 GMT -5
Greg,
My statement only applies if the club grip is neutral so that the clubface is parallel to the back of the FLW at address. If one has an open clubface, or closed clubface, at address (despite a neutral grip), then the rule doesn't apply, and the rule also doesn't apply if the golfer has a very strong left hand grip where the clubface is not parallel to the back of the FLW at address eg. David Duval or Jamie Sadlowski. That's the situation with your golfer - who presumably is David Duval. However, that rule does apply to Rory who uses a neutral grip - and whose clubface is parallel to the back of his FLW at his end-backswing position. If it is parallel at the end-backswing position, then it must remain parallel throughout the downswing - if the left wrist remains flat.
Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Mar 13, 2012 8:47:33 GMT -5
Greg, My statement only applies if the club grip is neutral so that the clubface is parallel to the back of the FLW at address. If one has an open clubface, or closed clubface, at address (despite a neutral grip), then the rule doesn't apply, and the rule also doesn't apply if the golfer has a very strong left hand grip where the clubface is not parallel to the back of the FLW at address eg. David Duval or Jamie Sadlowski. That's the situation with your golfer - who presumably is David Duval. However, that rule does apply to Rory who uses a neutral grip - and whose clubface is parallel to the back of his FLW at his end-backswing position. If it is parallel at the end-backswing position, then it must remain parallel throughout the downswing - if the left wrist remains flat. Jeff. It seems a large % of the tour uses a strong to very strong grip according to this article. www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2011-07-pga-tour-grip-styles-part-1.htmlMaybe that alignment is not all that important?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 13, 2012 9:08:58 GMT -5
Greg, I think that the majority of PGA tour golfer use a neutral left hand grip. I regard a slightly strong (2-3 knuckle) left hand grip as being neutral. I think that KM is biased and misrepresents reality - Sam Snead and Jack Nicklaus had neutral left hand grips, and a strong right hand grip has no relevance for a swinger. KM even claims that Tiger Woods has a strong left hand grip, when his grip is neutral. Note that his clubface is parallel to the back of his FLW. KM classifies TW as "standard" strong and he claims that it represents 60% of PGA tour golfers. I regard that classification category as being neutral, and not strong. He classifies 20% of golfers as having a Harley grip, which I classify as strong. Therefore, I would probably agree that 20% of PGA tour golfers use a strong left hand grip. Jeff.
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Post by walther on Mar 21, 2012 17:15:01 GMT -5
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Post by tomdavis76 on Mar 21, 2012 20:32:31 GMT -5
Greg, I think that the majority of PGA tour golfer use a neutral left hand grip. I regard a slightly strong (2-3 knuckle) left hand grip as being neutral. I think that KM is biased and misrepresents reality - Sam Snead and Jack Nicklaus had neutral left hand grips, and a strong right hand grip has no relevance for a swinger. KM even claims that Tiger Woods has a strong left hand grip, when his grip is neutral. Note that his clubface is parallel to the back of his FLW. KM classifies TW as "standard" strong and he claims that it represents 60% of PGA tour golfers. I regard that classification category as being neutral, and not strong. He classifies 20% of golfers as having a Harley grip, which I classify as strong. Therefore, I would probably agree that 20% of PGA tour golfers use a strong left hand grip. Jeff. You are mis-quoting Kelvin on Tiger. The picture you posted is the one Kelvin used to show that Tiger had weakened his grip. This is the picture Kelvin used when he said Tiger had a strong grip earlier in his career:
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Post by gmbtempe on Mar 22, 2012 14:10:23 GMT -5
Tom, beat me too it. Tiger weakened his grip under Haney, which I believe he said was the first thing he changed with Tiger.
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Post by golfpro on Jun 5, 2012 14:13:22 GMT -5
Greg, I have no idea where BM gets the idea that Rory is pushing. I think that Rory is a swinger, and I think that he is pulling throughout the downswing. He simply positions his RFFW correctly relative to the LAFW as his LAFW comes down the inclined plane in the mid-downswing. Jeff. In the downswing you can pull with the left and push with the right at the same time. Jeff, your lines depicting the face angle in those photos is way off. Not nearly as open as you are showing. I would post the pics with the correct face angles, but, as a guest I cannot post pics and for some reason I can't register on this website. Seems like the admin guy has been MIA since April 27th.
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