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Post by imperfectgolfer on May 30, 2012 8:32:40 GMT -5
Tom, I believe that there are no secrets in Hogan's swing, and I think that it's BS to talk of pre-secret and post-secret. I can accept that Hogan's post-accident swing changed due to a slower pivot action, and if he was more prone to have an arched left wrist at impact as a result, then it is a disadvantage and not an advantage. I know of no advantage to having an arched left wrist ( markedly palmar flexed left wrist) at impact - rather than an anatomically flat left wrist (AFLW) which is only slightly palmar flexed at impact. I believe that the degree of palmar flexion of the left wrist at impact is determined by two factors in a golfer who adopts a weak/neutral left hand grip where the back of the left wrist faces the target - i) ball position relative to low point and ii) degree of inbuilt forward shaft lean inherent in the club. The further behind low point one positions the ball, the more forward shaft lean there will be at impact. However, the degree of palmar flexion should be minimal and not exaggerated. Hogan used a weak left hand grip and he dropped his left hand to near the hand plane by P6, which caused his left wrist to have a greater degree of scooping at P6. He then had to transition to an AFLW by impact, which he did well in the 1940s. In his later (post-accident) career, he may have had a more arched left wrist at impact and a tendency to have the arching develop earlier in the late downswing (soon after bypassing P6). However, that was probably due to his less efficient pivot motion and less effective arm movement. I can think of no reason why it would be advantageous. Modern day golfers often prefer to have a stronger left hand grip (like David Toms) because it decreases the amount of left forearm supination needed to square the clubface in the late downswing. David Toms still has to use a PA#3 release action - although far less than Hogan. Golfers who use a very strong 4+ knuckle grip can keep the clubface square to the clubhead arc throughout their swing action and they do not have to use any PA#3 release in their late downswing. A good example is Dominic Mazza. Here is his swing. Here are capture images. Image 1 is his end-backswing where his clubface is square to the clubhead arc and 90 degrees rotated relative to the back of his FLW. Image 2 is at P6. His clubface is still square to the clubhead arc and 90 degrees angled relative to his FLW. Image 3 is at P6.5 - his clubface is square to the clubhead arc and his FLW is parallel to the ball-target line. Image 4 is at impact - note that his FLW is still parallel to the ball-target line. He never had to roll his club using a left forearm supinatory motion (release of PA#3) in his late downswing. There is no gamma torque (twistaway maneuver) in his downswing action. Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on May 30, 2012 10:07:58 GMT -5
Really like that swing.
If I was thinking of a good model I would use this, strong grip requires less work to square which most of us struggle with. He definitely loads the right side more than maybe would be ideal for control but its a very athletic move he makes through the ball yet id does not look to be difficult (I would regard Bubba's motion, while awesome, difficult to do).
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Post by tomdavis76 on May 30, 2012 12:22:05 GMT -5
Tom, I believe that there are no secrets in Hogan's swing, and I think that it's BS to talk of pre-secret and post-secret. I can accept that Hogan's post-accident swing changed due to a slower pivot action, and if he was more prone to have an arched left wrist at impact as a result, then it is a disadvantage and not an advantage. I know of no advantage to having an arched left wrist ( markedly palmar flexed left wrist) at impact - rather than an anatomically flat left wrist (AFLW) which is only slightly palmar flexed at impact. I believe that the degree of palmar flexion of the left wrist at impact is determined by two factors in a golfer who adopts a weak/neutral left hand grip where the back of the left wrist faces the target - i) ball position relative to low point and ii) degree of inbuilt forward shaft lean inherent in the club. The further behind low point one positions the ball, the more forward shaft lean there will be at impact. However, the degree of palmar flexion should be minimal and not exaggerated. Hogan used a weak left hand grip and he dropped his left hand to near the hand plane by P6, which caused his left wrist to have a greater degree of scooping at P6. He then had to transition to an AFLW by impact, which he did well in the 1940s. In his later (post-accident) career, he may have had a more arched left wrist at impact and a tendency to have the arching develop earlier in the late downswing (soon after bypassing P6). However, that was probably due to his less efficient pivot motion and less effective arm movement. I can think of no reason why it would be advantageous. I guess that just means you don't know everything! The history is quite clear. Hogan had a great 1946 but was struggling in 1947. During a break late in the season, he discovered "the secret" and immediately went out and won both events at George May's World Championship golf event. In 1948, he began telling people he had discovered "the secret" and by mid-year he had full command of it. He played his best golf ever, winning the US Open and the PGA Championship, and thoroughly dominated the tour, winning six tournaments in a row during one stretch, which earned him a Time magazine cover story. In four events in January 1949, he won twice and had a second. On February 2, 1949, he had the accident.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on May 30, 2012 16:08:33 GMT -5
Tom,
Where is your "evidence" that Hogan stated he had a "secret" that specifically involved an early left arm supination/arched left wrist maneuver?
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on May 30, 2012 16:14:22 GMT -5
Greg,
I don't know why you think that DM's swing action is not that difficult. I think that getting an open pelvis and having the right heel raised at impact is very difficult for inflexible golfers. It is also very difficult to get the right shoulder that far downplane so that one still has a bent right arm and dorsiflexed right wrist at impact. I also think that it requires an extraordinary degree of flexibility to keep the clubface square to the clubhead arc throughout the entire backswing.
Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on May 30, 2012 16:46:43 GMT -5
Tom, Where is your "evidence" that Hogan stated he had a "secret" that specifically involved an early left arm supination/arched left wrist maneuver? Jeff. Before you change the subject and create strawmen, at least acknowledge that Hogan had a "secret", he told everyone he had one and his play improved dramatically (prior to 1948 he had won only one major) when he started talking about it. David Barrett's Miracle at Merion is a good source on this topic. Of course, Hogan described the secret in a Life magazine article in 1955. On your evidence question, I never claimed that Hogan made such an explicit statement, so why should I be asked to provide "evidence" that he did? In any case, whether you see it or not, post-secret is when the early supination/pf becomes visible, as posted in the GIFs above, and those moves are consistent with what was written in both the Life article and Five Lessons. As I asked you before, if he made those moves pre-secret, let's see some evidence!
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Post by tomdavis76 on May 30, 2012 16:54:01 GMT -5
Greg, I don't know why you think that DM's swing action is not that difficult. I think that getting an open pelvis and having the right heel raised at impact is very difficult for inflexible golfers. It is also very difficult to get the right shoulder that far downplane so that one still has a bent right arm and dorsiflexed right wrist at impact. I also think that it requires an extraordinary degree of flexibility to keep the clubface square to the clubhead arc throughout the entire backswing. Jeff. Just sounds to me like you don't know how to do any of those swings. Furyk isn't very flexible at all by tour standards and he does all that. So do plenty of seniors on the Champions tour. In fact, keeping the clubface square is one of the easiest things to do in the backswing: just take it back like Miller Barber! How flexible does he look???
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Post by tomdavis76 on May 30, 2012 16:59:14 GMT -5
TD, You can believe whatever you want to believe, but I don't think that there is any difference in Hogan's left wrist action between his earlier career and later career. I think that he transitioned from a GFLW => AFLW => arched left wrist as he described in his "Five Lessons" book. Your first animated gif was captured too early - prior to P6. As Hogan described in his book's diagram, the transition from a GFLW to an AFLW happens after P6. I also don't see any unusual clubface closing in the second animated gif due to a twistaway maneuver. The toe of his club is pointing relatively upwards and the clubface is not unusually closed to the clubhead arc in that second animated gif. Jeff. Did I say there would be? With a weak grip, the amount of pf and supination Hogan performed wouldn't close the face an "unusual" amount.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on May 30, 2012 21:15:46 GMT -5
Tom,
You wrote-: "Before you change the subject and create strawmen, at least acknowledge that Hogan had a "secret", he told everyone he had one and his play improved dramatically (prior to 1948 he had won only one major) when he started talking about it."
It is well known that Hogan claimed he had a "secret" and there has been endless debate over many decades as to whether that assertion is true, and also what's the nature of the "secret". I once saw a list of ~20 hypothetical theories as to Hogan's secret. I found the list devoid of any "evidence". I am aware of the Life article, which has nothing to with any early left forearm supination/palmar flexion in the late downswing (using a twistaway maneuver). You have therefore provided zero evidence for your belief that it represents Hogan's secret.
Secondly, Hogan may have won a lot of majors at that time, but that doesn't mean that his overall ball-striking was significantly improved as a result of some "secret".
You also wrote-: "In fact, keeping the clubface square is one of the easiest things to do in the backswing: just take it back like Miller Barber! How flexible does he look???"
That's a BS argument. Anybody can perform that unusual type of backswing action and keep the clubface square. However, his clubface is not perpendicular to the back of his FLW during the backswing action. Also, MB had to re-route the club to get back down to the ball. If you stop his downswing at the P5 position, you will note that his club is open to the clubhead arc. It is nothing like Mazza's swing action - where the clubface is perpendicular to the back of his FLW during the backswing and downswing and where the clubface is square to the clubhead arc throughout the backswing and downswing.
You also wrote-: "Did I say there would be? With a weak grip, the amount of pf and supination Hogan performed wouldn't close the face an "unusual" amount."
The total amount of left forearm supination and closing of the clubface would be the same, but the timing of clubface closure would be much earlier (happening between P5.5 and P6.3) if Hogan applied a twistaway maneuver as BM demonstrated, and that would produce an unusual amount of clubface closure at P6.3 for a golfer who has a weak left hand grip.
Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on May 30, 2012 23:11:38 GMT -5
Greg, I don't know why you think that DM's swing action is not that difficult. I think that getting an open pelvis and having the right heel raised at impact is very difficult for inflexible golfers. It is also very difficult to get the right shoulder that far downplane so that one still has a bent right arm and dorsiflexed right wrist at impact. I also think that it requires an extraordinary degree of flexibility to keep the clubface square to the clubhead arc throughout the entire backswing. Jeff. Yes when you frame it like that. Sure getting the face as closed as DM can be a difficult, but maybe a more usable standard would be David Toms, who honestly is not the worlds greatest athlete. exactly square to the arc might be the extreme, I just want it more towards perpendicular than fanning it open. I agree getting the right heal off the ground is difficult, but I think his pivot is a lot more usable than say this pivot, long hitter.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on May 31, 2012 0:34:45 GMT -5
Greg,
I agree that David Toms' relatively strong left hand grip is a more achievable standard and many PGA tour golfers use a 3 knuckle left hand grip that decreases the amount of fanning that will happen with a weak/neutral left hand grip.
Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on May 31, 2012 8:03:01 GMT -5
Tom, You wrote-: "Before you change the subject and create strawmen, at least acknowledge that Hogan had a "secret", he told everyone he had one and his play improved dramatically (prior to 1948 he had won only one major) when he started talking about it." It is well known that Hogan claimed he had a "secret" and there has been endless debate over many decades as to whether that assertion is true, and also what's the nature of the "secret". I once saw a list of ~20 hypothetical theories as to Hogan's secret. I found the list devoid of any "evidence". I am aware of the Life article, which has nothing to with any early left forearm supination/palmar flexion in the late downswing (using a twistaway maneuver). You have therefore provided zero evidence for your belief that it represents Hogan's secret. Nonsense. You just choose to ignore the evidence. There is plenty if you know where to look! So, what's your theory? He secretly became a great putter but told everyone that it was his ball striking? You are just denying the facts. Hogan later said he never hit it as well as 1948 and 1949 and his record backs it up. You can claim he was lying and just chipped and putted to all those victories but that's just being a crackpot. Why is that important? Actually what he does from the top is very simple: he just externally rotates the right shoulder and everything falls into place. Couples, Nicklaus, Furyk all do the same thing and they are all great ballstrikers. I don't care what Mazza does, never looked at it. Who cares what Manzella did? I'm talking about Higan. With you the strawmen never stop!
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Post by imperfectgolfer on May 31, 2012 8:23:25 GMT -5
Tom,
You wrote-: "Who cares what Manzella did? I'm talking about Hogan. With you the strawmen never stop!"
I have never disputed that Hogan had an arched left wrist at impact. It is demonstrated in his Five Lessons diagram. I am only disputing that Hogan used a twistaway maneuver that caused his clubface to become unusually closed by P6.3 (which is earlier than the clubface closure that occurs due to the release of PA#3).
You wrote-: "So, what's your theory? He secretly became a great putter but told everyone that it was his ball striking? You are just denying the facts. Hogan later said he never hit it as well as 1948 and 1949 and his record backs it up. You can claim he was lying and just chipped and putted to all those victories but that's just being a crackpot."
I never stated that Hogan was not hitting the ball better - I am only stating that it has not been proven that it was due to a single factor ("secret").
You also wrote-: "I don't care what Mazza does, never looked at it."
That explains a lot!
Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on May 31, 2012 21:26:01 GMT -5
Tom, You wrote-: "Who cares what Manzella did? I'm talking about Hogan. With you the strawmen never stop!" I have never disputed that Hogan had an arched left wrist at impact. It is demonstrated in his Five Lessons diagram. I am only disputing that Hogan used a twistaway maneuver that caused his clubface to become unusually closed by P6.3 (which is earlier than the clubface closure that occurs due to the release of PA#3). Who said that Hogan's clubface was ever "unusually closed"? He just trained himself to square it up a little earlier with the "secret". Furyk and other players today do the same thing, as do the really strong grippers. There certainly could have been more to it than just the "secret" Hogan disclosed in 1955; in fact, that's quite likely based on what I've heard from someone close to his inner circle. Nevertheless, Hogan made it clear that the "secret" was a very important part of his stellar play in 1948 and 1949. What evidence do you have that he was either mistaken or lying? For example???
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Post by imperfectgolfer on May 31, 2012 21:41:03 GMT -5
Tom,
You wrote-: "Nevertheless, Hogan made it clear that the "secret" was a very important part of his stellar play in 1948 and 1949. What evidence do you have that he was either mistaken or lying?"
How can I believe that Hogan was mistaken or lying about the "secret" if I don't know what's the "Hogan secret"? I have never found anybody who definitely knows what's the nature of the "Hogan secret" (although I have seen an endless number of different opinions about the nature/details of "Hogan's secret").
Jeff.
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