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Post by tomdavis76 on May 31, 2012 23:07:19 GMT -5
Tom, You wrote-: "Nevertheless, Hogan made it clear that the "secret" was a very important part of his stellar play in 1948 and 1949. What evidence do you have that he was either mistaken or lying?" How can I believe that Hogan was mistaken or lying about the "secret" if I don't know what's the "Hogan secret"? I have never found anybody who definitely knows what's the nature of the "Hogan secret" (although I have seen an endless number of different opinions about the nature/details of "Hogan's secret"). Jeff. Why don't you start with the Life Magazine article published in 1955 titled "This is My Secret" by Ben Hogan? I think Hogan is in a position to "definitively" know what his secret was! Who cares about anybody else's opinion? Just read what Hogan wrote!!!
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Post by stacknmac on May 31, 2012 23:25:56 GMT -5
Greg, I agree that David Toms' relatively strong left hand grip is a more achievable standard and many PGA tour golfers use a 3 knuckle left hand grip that decreases the amount of fanning that will happen with a weak/neutral left hand grip. Jeff. That's a change in tune. So, you've finally come around to KM's point of view? Bravo.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 1, 2012 3:32:06 GMT -5
TD wrote-: "Why don't you start with the Life Magazine article published in 1955 titled "This is My Secret" by Ben Hogan? I think Hogan is in a position to "definitively" know what his secret was! Who cares about anybody else's opinion? Just read what Hogan wrote!!!" What a foolish comment Anybody who is interested in Hogan has read that Life article. books.google.com.au/books?id=W1MEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA126&dq=ben+hogan+shoulders&hl=en&ei=ruGPTc7PCoPEvgPz4PieDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=ben%20hogan%20shoulders&f=falseAnybody can do a google search by typing in "Hogan's secret" and read about the "cupping of the left wrist at the end-backswing". However, "cupping of the left wrist at the end-backswing" has nothing to do with the topic of this thread-: "left wrist motions between P6 and P7 and the secondary topic of a "downswing twistaway maneuver". Jeffy has written about Hogan's secret and he has expressed his biased interpretation/opinions - see jeffygolf.com/showthread.php?225-A-look-at-Hogan-s-quot-secret-quotJeffy also believes that Hogan's secret was related to this topic - see jeffygolf.com/showthread.php?240-A-different-take-on-the-timing-of-Hogan-s-quot-secret-quot. However, he has no evidence to support this belief - based on anything Hogan specifically stated. Ted Hunt has also written a book on the topic of an arched left wrist at impact - called "Ben Hogan's Magical Device" - and he has a different opinion on the issue. However, none of his opinions are based on anything Hogan specifically stated. Mike Maves and Tom Betrand have also written books/articles on Hogan's secrets, but they are simply opinions without any "evidence". Tom is simply demonstrating his ignorance by harping on this "Hogan secret" issue, and I am no longer going to respond his overly simplistic and uninformative comments. Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 1, 2012 3:48:12 GMT -5
stacknmac wrote-: "That's a change in tune. So, you've finally come around to KM's point of view? Bravo." What a foolish comment! I have never personally endorsed the idea of a strong left hand grip as the "best choice". I have simply stated that the stronger the left hand grip - the less one will pronate the left forearm in the backswing and the less one will have to supinate it in the downswing. In other words, one will use less PA#3 release motion if one strengthens the left hand grip - until one can completely eliminate the use of a PA#3 release action by adopting an ultra-strong left hand grip (like Mazza). www.golfdigest.com/golf-instruction/swing-sequences/2011-02/photos-domenic-mazza#slide=1However, that doesn't mean that I recommend a strong left hand grip. It is a personal choice that each individual golfer must make when choosing how to grip the handle of the club with the left hand. Many professional golfers (like Luke Donald and Phil Mickelson and Ernie Els) have chosen to use a neutral left hand grip, while other professional golfers have chosen to use a much stronger left hand grip. There are advantages and disadvantages (pros/cons) related to each choice. Jeff.
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Post by stacknmac on Jun 1, 2012 8:23:37 GMT -5
Jeff Just like you anyone can speculate what Hogan's secret was. However unless one assumes Hogan was a duplicitous liar who did not tell the truth in the Life article, there is no secret. He revealed it. Hogan Secret: applies to expert players fighting a hook. not recommended for amateur. Consists of 2 parts: weakening the grip at set up so that the left thumb is approximately on top of the shaft and imparting a slight (4-6 degree) bend in the left wrist during the backswing. Hogan's secrets says nothing about impact or anything else for that matter. nm That's not quite true. In the Life article, he speaks several times about closing the club face in the downswing, saying he could do it as hard as he could and not hook. Sounds like early supination to me. Two years later in Five Lessons he talked at length about supination ("all good players do it") and the arch in the left wrist. Is it really that hard to put two and two together? BTW, look at the article again: he said handicap golfers who couldn't close the face in the downswing would be ruined by the secret, pushing shots to the right or even shanking.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 1, 2012 14:44:34 GMT -5
nmg wrote regarding Hogan's secret-: "Consists of 2 parts: weakening the grip at set up so that the left thumb is approximately on top of the shaft and imparting a slight (4-6 degree) bend in the left wrist during the backswing". The adoption of a weak left hand grip automatically creates a small degree of cupping (dorsiflexion) in the back of the left wrist at the end-backswing - if one has an intact LAFW. Hogan had an intact LAFW at his end-backswing position. One can clearly see that Hogan had an intact LAFW in that animated gif image, and the clubface is parallel to the back of his left hand. From that position, he simply swung his intact LAFW down into impact, and rolled the intact LAFW between P6.5 and P7 in order to square the clubface. Stacknmac wrote-: "In the Life article, he speaks several times about closing the club face in the downswing, saying he could do it as hard as he could and not hook. Sounds like early supination to me." Nonsense! Early supination before P6 would throw the intact LAFW over-the-plane and that didn't happen in Hogan's swing. He applied left forearm supination after the release of PA#2 - because PA#2 release must precede PA#3 release if one wants to keep the clubshaft on-plane between P6 and P7. In Sasho Mackenzie's forward dynamics computer model, he deliberately ensured that his left forearm torque generator would start to apply a rotary torque at 0.16 seconds so that the left forearm supinatory motion would occur after P6.5. Note that the left forearm torque only starts at 0.16 seconds and that it reaches peak power at 0.2 seconds. Hogan prevented a hooking problem by keeping his LAFW intact through impact - by ensuring that the back of the left wrist was leading the clubhead through impact thereby avoiding flipping, and he also maintained an intact LAFW to well beyond the end of the early followthrough. Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 1, 2012 17:38:21 GMT -5
See Jeffy's opinion on Hogan's secret jeffygolf.com/showthread.php?225-A-look-at-Hogan-s-quot-secret-quotHe stated the following-: "Hogan also wrote that whenever he wanted to use the "secret", he had to consciously make the left wrist cupping happen. Everything else in his swing was done without conscious thought or direction, through what Hogan called "muscle memory". To hit a draw, Hogan wrote, all he did was NOT employ the "secret". That would mean no cupping of the left wrist at the top of the backswing, which in turn would mean no additional pronation, which would result in a less open clubface at the end of the backswing." He then posted the following comparison photos. He claims that swing 1 (left-side) was a fade swing and swing 2 (right-side) was a draw swing. Can you see any difference in the degree of cupping of his left wrist at the end-backswing? I cannot - and I have never seen Hogan with a non-cupped left wrist at his end-backswing position. How would Hogan get his left wrist to be non-cupped at his end-backswing position - and how does different degrees of left forearm pronation play a biomechanical role? Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 1, 2012 23:29:07 GMT -5
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 2, 2012 17:13:04 GMT -5
nmg wrote-: "That said a cursory examination of MacKinze's math model result does confirm what Hogan discovered namely that club-head above this (non-existant) plane of the lead arm makes it more difficult to square the face at impact. This is exactly what the golfer fighting a hook needs because he/she is not having a problem squaring the clubface."
I think that a golfer with a hooking problem is having a problem squaring the face and he could also be having a problem with controlling his clubhead path. I think that the remedy should never include getting the clubshaft to start above what nmg calls the (non-existent) plane - as Hogan recommends. It's an unreliable technique and it also results in a decreased clubhead speed at impact (for reasons that Sasho provides in his paper). I think that a golfer with a hooking problem should tackle the root causes.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 2, 2012 22:38:53 GMT -5
nmg wrote regarding Sasho MacKenzie's paper-: "For instance, the model does not include pronation and supination. All real golfers do that and a valid model cannot ignore it." Astonishing! I have no idea how nmg can come to that conclusion when the central point of his paper relates to the issue of supination of the lead forearm - both passive and active. He used four torque generators in his forward dynamics computer model. The forearm torque generator applied an active supinatory torque to the lead forearm in some of his simulations, while in other simulations the lead forearm rotation was passive. He compared the results of the different simulations in his results-table and interpretative conclusions. Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Jun 2, 2012 22:40:56 GMT -5
See Jeffy's opinion on Hogan's secret jeffygolf.com/showthread.php?225-A-look-at-Hogan-s-quot-secret-quotHe stated the following-: "Hogan also wrote that whenever he wanted to use the "secret", he had to consciously make the left wrist cupping happen. Everything else in his swing was done without conscious thought or direction, through what Hogan called "muscle memory". To hit a draw, Hogan wrote, all he did was NOT employ the "secret". That would mean no cupping of the left wrist at the top of the backswing, which in turn would mean no additional pronation, which would result in a less open clubface at the end of the backswing." He then posted the following comparison photos. He claims that swing 1 (left-side) was a fade swing and swing 2 (right-side) was a draw swing. Wrong. The left side swing is the draw: look at the caddie/target, just as Jeffy said. You can't get anything right! That would be pretty hard given how poor the resolution is, no? Who cares what you have "seen" or "never seen"? How many swing sequences are there of Hogan that have clear enough resolution to tell? Not many, in my experience. Please show us all these swings you have "seen" where it is possible to tell whether or not the left wrist is cupped. Once again, your theory requires that Hogan and his contemporaries are fools or liars: Hogan wrote flatly that to fade he cupped, to draw he didn't. Middlecoff observed the same thing. Sixty years later, based on what?, you are calling them liars.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 2, 2012 23:22:52 GMT -5
Tom wrote-: "Wrong. The left side swing is the draw: look at the caddie/target, just as Jeffy said. You can't get anything right!" My typo mistake. That Tom generalizes it to claim that I cannot get anything right only demonstrates his personal prejudices (ala Jeffy). Tom wrote-: "Who cares what you have "seen" or "never seen"? How many swing sequences are there of Hogan that have clear enough resolution to tell? Not many, in my experience. Please show us all these swings you have "seen" where it is possible to tell whether or not the left wrist is cupped." Getting a clear view of Hogan's biomechanical movements is very difficult because there is no slow motion film material publically available. However, he used a weak left hand grip and one can see that the clubface is parallel to his lower left forearm at his end-backswing in some images, which signifies a GFLW (slightly cupped left wrist) if the LAFW is intact. i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd102/jeffy10028/Rightelbowmove.gif [/img] I wrote-: "How would Hogan get his left wrist to be non-cupped at his end-backswing position - and how does different degrees of left forearm pronation play a biomechanical role?" Tom then wrote-: "Once again, your theory requires that Hogan and his contemporaries are fools or liars: Hogan wrote flatly that to fade he cupped, to draw he didn't. Middlecoff observed the same thing. Sixty years later, based on what?, you are calling them liars." What foolishness! I am not asserting that Hogan didn't do what he stated. I am only stating that I have never seen him with an AFLW or arched left wrist at his end-backswing position, and I then asked a question relating to the underlying biomechanics that would produce a non-cupped left wrist in a golfer who has a weak left hand grip. Tom (who is obviously Jeffy), of course, didn't address my question. He is very selective in his biased approach to online debates - he first demanded that I provide visual evidence of Hogan having an arched left wrist at impact in the 1930s and early 1940s, and then he subsequently argues that one cannot easily determine whether the left wrist is cupped (or not cupped) at the end-backswing position. If he cannot determine whether Hogan's left wrist is cupped (or non-cupped) at the end-backswing position from viewing old films (converted to video) when the left hand becomes stationary, then how can he rationally demand that I should prove that Hogan had an arched left wrist at impact - when the left hand is traveling very fast and the hands are a complete blur? Such hypocrisy! Jeff.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Jun 3, 2012 14:19:03 GMT -5
Tom wrote-: "Wrong. The left side swing is the draw: look at the caddie/target, just as Jeffy said. You can't get anything right!" My typo mistake. That Tom generalizes it to claim that I cannot get anything right only demonstrates his personal prejudices (ala Jeffy). Tom wrote-: "Who cares what you have "seen" or "never seen"? How many swing sequences are there of Hogan that have clear enough resolution to tell? Not many, in my experience. Please show us all these swings you have "seen" where it is possible to tell whether or not the left wrist is cupped." Getting a clear view of Hogan's biomechanical movements is very difficult because there is no slow motion film material publically available. However, he used a weak left hand grip and one can see that the clubface is parallel to his lower left forearm at his end-backswing in some images, which signifies a GFLW (slightly cupped left wrist) if the LAFW is intact. i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd102/jeffy10028/Rightelbowmove.gif [/img] I wrote-: "How would Hogan get his left wrist to be non-cupped at his end-backswing position - and how does different degrees of left forearm pronation play a biomechanical role?" Tom then wrote-: "Once again, your theory requires that Hogan and his contemporaries are fools or liars: Hogan wrote flatly that to fade he cupped, to draw he didn't. Middlecoff observed the same thing. Sixty years later, based on what?, you are calling them liars." What foolishness! I am not asserting that Hogan didn't do what he stated. I am only stating that I have never seen him with an AFLW or arched left wrist at his end-backswing position, and I then asked a question relating to the underlying biomechanics that would produce a non-cupped left wrist in a golfer who has a weak left hand grip. [/quote] Easy, you don't cup it. Hogan said the cupping was deliberate and only happened when he consciously did it. See above. Such bullshit! There are plenty of pre-"secret" high quality impact photos from the Power Golf shoot, as well as plenty of others where the left hand is not "a complete blur".
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 3, 2012 23:01:57 GMT -5
nmg wrote-: "Regarding MacKinzie... What is astonishing is that people are still considering these thoroughly debunked simpleton models of the golf swing."
He is free to find SMK's forward dynamics computer model as being too simplistic and invalid, but he is not free to make incorrect statements - like claiming that SMK's forward dynamics model didn't include left forearm supination. I am not surprised that he finds Nesbit's inverse dynamics model more relevant - even though Nesbit didn't include any left forearm supination rotation (release of PA#3) in his computer modelling, which was only two-dimensional with respect to the clubshaft motion during the downswing.
His statement that "people believe what they want to believe", and that confirmation bias affects my thinking applies equally well to him, and to other forum members (like Tom/Jeffy). One doesn't win any points with that type of argument.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 3, 2012 23:23:32 GMT -5
Tom/Jeffy wrote-: "Easy, you don't cup it. Hogan said the cupping was deliberate and only happened when he consciously did it."
I disagree. Hogan always had a cupped left wrist at his end-backswing due to having an intact LAFW/GFLW at the end-backswing position. He may at times have cupped the left wrist more by increasing the degree of left wrist dorsiflexion, but then the clubface would not be parallel to the back of his lower left forearm and it would be more open. Tom/Jeffy has not shown any visual evidence that Hogan actually did that in his swing action - even though Hogan claimed to use that "secret" to avoid hooking the ball. I believe that Hogan's cupping was simply due to the adoption of a weak left hand grip, which automatically produces cupping at the end-backswing position when the LAFW is intact.
Jeffy wrote in the Gotham Blog forum that my opinions were totally irrelevant. However, he cannot stop invading this golf forum using false names. Jeffy has been banned three times from this forum, but he continues to come back (using a false name) to counter my "irrelevant opinions". It is a reflection of his lack of character and sensitivity-to-criticism that he continues to behave in this pathological manner. He will soon be banned again if he continues to behave in his habitual boorish manner. It also reflective of his character that he unilaterally/arbitrarily bans any forum member who contradicts his opinions in his Jeffy-forum regarding issues relating to golf swing mechanics/biomechanics. In this forum, one doesn't get banned for expression contrary opinions regarding golf swing mechanics/biomechanics, but a forum member will get promptly banned for behaving in an uncivilized manner (which has been Jeffy's habitual modus operandi in the past).
Jeff.
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