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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 8, 2012 22:22:14 GMT -5
There has been endless debate in a number of golf forums on the issue of what causes the clubface to close during a left wrist palmar flexion action. Tapio has promoted the idea that any clubface closure is inherent to the palmar flexion action. Jeffy has promoted the idea that it is due to an associated rotary motion of the left forearm that happens simultaneously. I believe that it is due to a finger flexor-torquing action that happens when the fingers are grasping a rounded object held in the palm (in a fist-like manner) - when the tightly fisted left hand is palmar flexed. I have produced a 24 minute video to discuss/demonstrate all these issues. www.ustream.tv/recorded/23179003You will have to tolerate a few 15-30 seconds ads when watching this video - which I produced using a my free U-stream broadcast channel. You will also have to click-out ads that appear at the bottom of the screen. Note that I unintentionally allowed my left forearm to rotate during the demonstration of Hogan's left wrist palmar flexor action that happens between P5.5-P6.3 and that wouldn't happen in a "real life" golf swing because the torso is rotating (which didn't happen in my demonstration because my torso was too static and I didn't rotate my torso while palmar flexing my left wrist). Also note that when I demonstrated that one can perform a "screwdriver action" with a palmar flexed left wrist using a finger torqueing action, I did the demonstration too forcefully and I unintentionally allowed my lower forearm to secondarily rotate. Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 12, 2012 23:17:02 GMT -5
Dextrous
Your wrote-: "So you're saying that palmar flexion and supination of the left forearm by themselves has no affect on the clubface rotation during the downswing as the club is delivered to the ball? It's just strictly due to the torquing of the fingers?"
No! You are totally misunderstanding what I am stating.
I am only stating that in an isolated left palmar flexion action, that any clubface closure is due to a finger torquing action, and not due to left forearm supination or due to the left palmar flexion action, which should not rotate the clubshaft around its longitudinal axis if the only wrist flexor muscles involved are flexor carpi radialis and flexor carpi ulnaris.
In the downswing, there may be zero finger torquing action if the golfer doesn't perform a twistaway maneuver using an active contraction of the flexor digitorum profundus muscle. Left forearm supination is the cause of clubface closure in the late downswing (between P6.5 and P7) if the golfer uses a neutral left hand grip and employs left forearm pronation during his backswing action. Left palmar flexion in the later downswing causes the clubshaft to develop a greater degree of forward shaft lean and that will result in an open clubface at impact if there is no other biomechanical action happening that closes the clubface (eg. left forearm supination).
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 13, 2012 7:31:49 GMT -5
Dextrous,
You wrote-: "So, you're saying that palmar flexion is not responsible for any face closure, but, it will cause shaft lean and an open face at impact, so, to square the face at impact, either forearm supination or finger torque or both will be needed. Is this how you hit a straight shot with low trajectory? Doesn't palmar flexion and shaft lean deloft the club also?"
You seem to not understand that there are two types of clubface closure - i) clubface closure due to a rotary motion of the clubshaft around the body and that is due to torso rotation combined with rotation of the left humeral head in the left shoulder socket and there is no clubshaft rotation around its longitudinal axis due to these motions; ii) clubface closure due to left forearm supination, which happens in direct proportion to the amount of of left forearm pronation that occurs in the backswing, and that left forearm supinatory action rotates the clubshaft around its longitudinal axis. There is usually no clubface closure due to finger torquing in the traditional swinger's action if a golfer doesn't apply a twistaway maneuver in the downswing.
Left wrist flexion/extension significantly affects the degree of clubface loft, but it also affects the degree of clubface closure at impact because the clubshaft and left arm are not in a straight line relationship at impact and the VSP is not 90 degrees. There is always an accumulator #3 angle present (and the degree depends on left palmar grip type) and the degree of clubface closure/opening is greater per unit amount of left wrist extension/flexion if the accumulator #3 angle is greater - because it decreases the VSP at impact.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 13, 2012 23:41:28 GMT -5
Dextrous,
This thread was purely targeted at the issue of what causes clubface closure during an isolated left wrist palmar flexion motion - as performed by Tapio.
Tapio has responded to this thread in another golf forum, and he agrees with my explanation.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 14, 2012 17:59:46 GMT -5
Dextrous To post photos, one needs to supply an url address of the image and then highlight it => then click on the image button. It should look like this url address with no empty spacing at either end. Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 15, 2012 7:31:21 GMT -5
Dextrous - you are free to believe that the green line better represents reality. However, that is merely a biased personal opinion, and not "evidence".
I believe that Rory uses a neutral left hand grip and plays with an intact LAFW and under those conditions the clubface must be parallel to the back of his GFLW - and I think that the red line, and not the green line, is parallel to the back of his GFLW.
By the way, what does the white blurred line that is parallel to the red line represent? I believe that it represents the lower edge of the clubface.
Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Jun 15, 2012 9:49:06 GMT -5
Why "must" it be parallel. We know that players like Singh had his driver bent way open, I think the number was 7 degrees. Some people have drivers that are 2-3 degrees closed. I think must is probably too strong a word.
Also on the Rory photo, isn't that a very odd photo angle?
I agree that he plays with a very neutral face though, path inside out, tends to get under it and plays a block/hook type of game when he is off.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 15, 2012 13:49:36 GMT -5
Greg,
When I state that the clubface must be parallel to the back of GFLW during the mid-downswing, that assertion only applies if it was parallel when adopting a neutral grip at address. If the clubface is open (or closed) a few degrees when adopting a neutral grip and establishing a GFLW at address, then it should remain open (or closed) to the same degree if one maintains an intact LAFW/GFLW throughout the swing action.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 15, 2012 20:30:15 GMT -5
Dextrous,
Your latest photo gives more solid evidence that when Rory adopts a neutral grip that his clubface is slightly closed relative to the back of his GFLW. That would indicate that the green line is more consonant with his clubface angle than my red line, which means that his clubface is less open to the clubhead arc at that time point than I originally indicated with my drawn red line.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 15, 2012 21:04:30 GMT -5
I went back to the Rory swing video and made new capture images. Image 1 shows that his clubface is slightly closed relative to the back of his FLW at his end-backswing position. Seeing that he maintains a FLW/intact LAFW during his downswing action, then this relationship should remain unchanged during his downswing action. These capture images show that his clubface is open to his clubhead arc between P4 and P6.3, but not to the degree that I originally indicated (red line photo). I can see no evidence of clubface closure due to a finger torquing action (twistaway maneuver). Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 17, 2012 22:11:12 GMT -5
We seemingly have different definitions of what represents an "open face". I define an "open face" as being relative to the clubhead arc and I think that he has an open face in all three of those images - but with the clubface been less open to the clubhead arc as one progresses from image 1 to image 3. I don't think that his clubface is a "bit shut" to his clubhead arc in image 1. It is only slightly slightly shut relative to his GFLW because he adopts that clubface/GFLW relationship at address.
I can see no relationship between his clubface alignment and his desired ball flight. He could be planning to hit a push-draw shot or a straight shot.
Jeff.
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