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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jul 5, 2012 22:52:08 GMT -5
Here is a BM-forum thread on increasing arm speed. www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/17425-arm-speed-golf-swing.htmlI am amazed that they (BM forum members) do not know the connection between arm speed and clubhead speed. Here is a nonsensical comment by Jim Kobylinski-: "If anyone could really figure out how to increase swing speed reliably, after fixing all swing mechanics, that person would be a very very rich person. I, personally, don't think anyone has it figured out just yet however Brian's research with handle rotation is at least getting us somewhere. Here is what i do when i want to hit the ball further and have confirmed via trackman and on course that i do swing it faster and if impact is good ball will go farther: At the end of my backswing i try to increase the rotational speed of my upper body while simultaneously trying to stop that rotation faster as well around impact. Whether or not it's accurate it's akin to the FEELING of snapping a wet towel on someone; to me anyway. I try to increase speed initially and then i decelerate HARD near impact and that club just comes whipping through." I am sure that one can increase clubhead speed via a "towel snapping" maneuver (pivot braking maneuver) but that will invariably result in an uncontrolled clubhead motion through impact and a breakdown of the LAFW through the immediate impact zone. What is the use of increased clubhead speed at the expense of loss of clubhead/clubface control? What characterises good long-drive competitors is their ability to increase clubhead speed to 140+mph without flipping through impact and without any breakdown of their LAFW. Here is Dominic Mazza - who hits the ball >400 yards. He can prevent left wrist breakdown in the early followthrough despite having a clubhead speed of 140+mph. Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jul 7, 2012 12:00:39 GMT -5
I think that nmg's wingnut-on-a-string analogy has no applicability to a full golf swing - because the string is attached to the hand, which is very close to the fulcrum point. In a full golf swing, the hands are at the end of the primary lever (which is the straight left arm). Therefore, a flail analogy with two sticks is a more "correct" analogy - the central stick is the left arm and the peripheral stick is the clubshaft. The movement of the left arm, and therefore the movement of the left hand, in space is dictated by the movement of the left shoulder socket in space. The designers of the Pingman machine have used this approach when designing their Pingman machine - by having a small lever (representing the left clavicle) join the central hinge joint (equivalent to the left shoulder socket) to the fulcrum axis point of the central torque generator motor. The hand arc path (peripheral hinge joint path) of the Pingman machine is dictated by the path of motion of the central hinge joint (equivalent to the left shoulder socket). Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jul 7, 2012 19:01:02 GMT -5
The fact that Pingman swings on a single plane while a golfer's downswing plane is not on a single plane doesn't affect the club release phenomenon in a "real life" golfer's double pendulum swing model system because the club is releasing within the plane of the LAFW (even while it shifts planes). I think that the swing action of a Pingman machine has great applicability to a swinger's swing action in terms of power generation and club release mechanics.
nmg believes that one shouldn't grip too tight. I believe that grip strength has no correlation with left wrist flexibility (peripheral hinge joint flexibility) and it is only the left wrist uncocking motion that must be free/loose so that the club can freely/passively release within the plane of the LAFW - while the golfer grips the club very firmly with the left 3rd, 4th and 5th fingers.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jul 8, 2012 18:21:28 GMT -5
nmg,
You are entitled to your personal opinions, but I think that they are both wrong.
You wrote-: "A plane that is moving is not a plane. Golfers don't swing on a plane."
I think that a golfer can swing "on-plane", but not on a plane - and "on-plane" is defined as having the peripheral end of the club always pointing at the ball-target line (or its extension) except when the clubshaft is parallel to the ball-target line. During the downswing, the clubshaft will shift its plane-of-steepness to a very small degree - but the shift is very small for many professional golfers between P5 and P7 and of no real significance in terms of the club release action, which still occurs passively (as if it were a part of a double pendulum swing model).
You wrote-: "Anyone that grips their club very firmly will not have much distance off the tee."
I think that's a BS claim! One can selectively use only the flexor digitorum muscles to the left 3rd and 4th and 5th fingers of the left hand to grip the club firmly, and the activation of those muscles does not necessarily interfere with the club release phenomenon, which occurs within the plane of ulnar/radial deviation of the left wrist. I believe that a golfer should grip the club firmly enough to prevent any possibility of the club twisting in the hand during the swing action or any possibility of the fingers opening at the end-backswing position.
Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Jul 9, 2012 9:33:07 GMT -5
NM, I know some people who are TGM types, if not current or former AI's (not BM), who are saying the same thing about planes.
It sounds like Jeff is talking from a teaching standpoint and not from a true mathematics standpoint.
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Post by virtuoso on Jul 9, 2012 11:42:51 GMT -5
They both understand each other completely, but alas....
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jul 9, 2012 13:47:56 GMT -5
nmg wrote-: "The concept of defining a plane as two points on the target line and the butt end of the club (and having the shaft on that plane) you describe above is again ... always changing, arbitrary and therefore meaningless." It may be meaningless to nmg to trace a SPL, but it not meaningless to Martin Hall and TGMers who understand how tracing a SPL creates a clubhead arc that is symmetrical to the ball-target line. Here is Martin Hall tracing a SPL (which means that his club is "on-plane"). See - smartstickgolf.com/why-it-works/planeClick on the button to view the Martin Hall video. He uses the "Smartstick", which has a laserlight at both ends of the Smartstick (which is equivalent to a golf clubshaft). Note that one of the laserlights must always be pointing at the ball-target line, or an extension of the ball-target line (which happens when the laserlight tracks up the side-wall) - except when the clubshaft is parallel to the ball-target line. If one performs the "flashlight drill" correctly (as demonstrated by Martin Hall), then one has to learnt how to keep the clubshaft on-plane throughout the backswing, downswing and followthrough. Many professional golfers successfully trace a SPL (ball-target line) during their swing action eg. Adam Scott, Heath Slocum, Anthony Kim, Justin Rose, Jason Day. Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Jul 9, 2012 14:01:39 GMT -5
nmg wrote-: "The concept of defining a plane as two points on the target line and the butt end of the club (and having the shaft on that plane) you describe above is again ... always changing, arbitrary and therefore meaningless." It may be meaningless to nmg to trace a SPL, but it not meaningless to Martin Hall and TGMers who understand how tracing a SPL creates a clubhead arc that is symmetrical to the ball-target line. Here is Martin Hall tracing a SPL (which means that his club is "on-plane"). See - smartstickgolf.com/why-it-works/planeClick on the button to view the Martin Hall video. He uses the "Smartstick", which has a laserlight at both ends of the Smartstick (which is equivalent to a golf clubshaft). Note that one of the laserlights must always be pointing at the ball-target line, or an extension of the ball-target line (which happens when the laserlight tracks up the side-wall) - except when the clubshaft is parallel to the ball-target line. If one performs the "flashlight drill" correctly (as demonstrated by Martin Hall), then one has to learnt how to keep the clubshaft on-plane throughout the backswing, downswing and followthrough. Many professional golfers successfully trace a SPL (ball-target line) during their swing action eg. Adam Scott, Heath Slocum, Anthony Kim, Justin Rose, Jason Day. Jeff. I would like to see the laser trace graphed on a real swing.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jul 9, 2012 14:05:18 GMT -5
nmg wrote-: "You are entitled to your personal opinions which are of course wrong as usual."
The difference between nmg and me is that I think that he is wrong, but he is absolutely sure that I am wrong. His highly opinioated aura of "absolute surety" is yet another reason why I hold his personal opinions in such a low regard. I think that his knowledge re: golf swing mechanics/biomechanics is highly deficient. I still have never seen him a post an explanation as to how Nesbit's papers can help a golfer improve their golf swing.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jul 9, 2012 14:08:51 GMT -5
Greg,
You wrote-: "I would like to see the laser trace graphed on a real swing."
You simply have to use a swing analyser program to study the swings of golfers like Jason Day and Adam Scott to see where the peripheral end of the club is pointing at every moment of their swing. However, I agree that it would be very nice to see them swing a laserlight-provided club to verify their ability to trace a SPL.
Here is another video showing Martin Hall teaching Morgan Pressel to trace a SPL.
Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Jul 9, 2012 14:27:00 GMT -5
Its a fine concept to help people with real issues with "plane", I have a feeling though the word "straight" might be a little to defined in this case.
Also, I do agree with the last sentence of your nmg rant, I have read the Nesbit stuff and understand it but not sure how it can be implemented into the golf swing, how you can learn it.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jul 9, 2012 18:17:28 GMT -5
Greg,
I don't understand why you find the term 'straight" too defined when it is integral/inherent to the swing concept of tracing a SPL. Of course, in "real life", it is only a desirable goal for golfers who want to create a clubhead arc that is symmetrical to the ball-target line, and it is not a swing imperative. Many professional golfers do not want to trace the ball-target line, and they prefer to generate a clubhead arc that is either "in-to-out", or "out-to-in", relative to the ball-target line.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jul 9, 2012 18:34:18 GMT -5
Here is Tongzilla's (a BM forum member's) opinion on the value of tracing a SPL. See - www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/17433-tracing-straight-plane-line.htmlTongzilla wrote-: "But as a precise concept, like I see some people using a laser beam...not a good idea. Much better idea to just zero out your swing (i.e. zero out trackman)." He thinks that it is not a good idea - but he doesn't explain why he harbors that opinion. He states that it is a much better idea to just zero-out the clubhead path/clubface orientation at impact - but he doesn't explain how to do this biomechanically/mechanically/geometrically. I guess it is just a simple matter of golf magic that BM-groupies easily master when they get a Trackman!!! Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jul 10, 2012 6:27:29 GMT -5
How do BM-groupies zero-out the clubhead path if they do not trace a SPL and try to generate an "in-to-square-to-in" clubhead path where the clubhead path is square (zeroed-out) at impact? What do they do mechanically/biomechanically/geometrically to ensure that the clubhead path is zeroed-out at impact? What are their biomechanical/mechanical/geometrical guidelines? Have you ever read "anything" written by BM relating to this issue - that comprehensively instructs golfers how to consistently zero-out the clubhead path by impact?
Jeff.
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Post by virtuoso on Jul 10, 2012 12:46:17 GMT -5
The exchanges between imperfectgolfer and nmgolfer are generally my favorites on all the forums.
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