Jeffy - Hogan's left arm

[imperfectgolfer]

See this jeffy forum thread - jeffygolf.com/showthread.php?912-Ben-Hogan-Another-quot-Five-Lessons-quot-myth-busted

Jeffy posted this drawing of Hogan at impact.



He states that it misrepresents Hogan's "real life" left arm alignment at impact because it indicates ER of the left humerus. I don't see that phenomenon. I think that it looks neutral - with the antecubital fossa facing about 60-70 degrees away from the target.

I don't think that there is a biomechanically-significant difference between that drawing and a photo of Hogan's "real life" swing.



There is only a slightly greater degree of IR of Hogan's left humerus in that photo - compared to the drawing. Both images also show an extended left arm, and not a significantly bent left elbow.

Jeffy wants to prove that Hogan's left humerus was more internally rotated at impact because he believes (without providing any scientific evidence/reasoning) in the following statement that he made-: "However, we know that an externally rotated left shoulder, with the elbow facing the target, and a contracted left bicep, with a slight bend at the elbow, is a more stable release pattern".

I presume that the bold-highlighted statement is a typo, and that he really meant IR of the left humerus. However, he has never provided any evidence to support his belief that a golfer who has a slightly bent left elbow is going to produce a more stable DH-hand release action than golfers who have a straighter/extended left arm. Here is my composite image showing many DHers through impact - most of them have a very straight/extended left arm through impact and they have have no problem generating a stable DH-hand release action through impact.



Jeff.

[konrad]

I don't understand the purpose of this thread other than to take "another" shot at Jeff Martin.

It is "obvious" the Ravielli illustration is wrong and it's been known for a very long time. Please show me a photo of Hogan at impact with his left arm in that position. You can't. The elbow almost looks hyperextended in that illustration.

The right hand position is also poorly represented.

[imperfectgolfer]

Konrad,

You may think that the drawing is non-representative of Hogan's left arm at impact, and you may think that his left arm looks hyperextended in that drawing, but I don't think it looks more extended in that drawing than his left arm in that "real life" photo. I also don't think that his left arm is externally rotated by more than 10-20 degrees in that drawing (relative to his "real life" swing), which I regard as a non-significant amount.

By the way, I am trying to get at KM/Jeffy by pointing out the "fact" that having a slightly bent left elbow at impact doesn't result in a more stable DH-release - compared to having an extended left arm at impact (like most of those golfers in my composite image).

Jeff.

[konrad]

I don't "think" Ravielli's drawing of Hogan's left arm at impact is different than his actual "real life" left arm position at impact, I "know" it is different.

To say the difference between the two left arm positions below are of a "non-significant amount" is ridiculous. The "fact" is, they are very different and that's the point being made.



Here's another comparison with a "real life" swing if the one above isn't sufficient enough for you.

[imperfectgolfer]

Konrad,

You may think that's a significant difference from a biomechanical perspective, but I don't - even though the visual difference is clearly discernible. What biomechanical significance is there if the left humerus has roughly ~20 degrees of greater IR at impact? How does it alter how a golfer should think of performing his downswing action?

Jeff.

[tomdavis76]

Jeff-

First, none of those pictures you posted are at impact, so it is impossible to make any claim about whether, at impact, the left shoulder is in ER or the left arm is extended. Second, several aren't DHers let alone elite ballstrikers. Third, most still retain some bend in the left arm.

I have found many professional golfers with left shoulder IR and bent left arms at impact that flip (because a flip can be caused by reasons unrelated to the the movements of the left shoulder and arm), but virtually no professional golfers who can DH with an externally rotated left shoulder and an extended left arm. The reason is obvious: left shoulder ER and extending the elbow predisposes extension of the wrist, just as left shoulder IR and flexion of the left elbow predisposes flexion of the wrist.

Here are the players I could find with a left shoulder ER and a fully extended left arm at impact. All the them flip except for roller Luke Donald.







Also, take a look at Moe Norman: his left shoulder stays in IR and and the left elbow never extends:




As konrad challenged you, find a picture of Hogan in the position as drawn by Ravielli at impact. I'll take it one step further: find any player of note in that position.

[imperfectgolfer]

Jeffy,

You wrote-: "First, none of those pictures you posted are at impact, so it is impossible to make any claim about whether the left arm is extended at impact. Second, several aren't DHers let alone elite ballstrikers. Third, most still retain some bend in the left arm."

I totally disagree. I think that it is irrational to suppose that their left arm is less extended at impact than it is at the end of the immediate impact zone (P7.1-P7.2). I also think that they are all DHers because they all have their clubshaft inline with their left arm at the end of the immediate impact zone (P7.1-P7.2). Finally, I also think that only a few of them have a small degree of left elbow bend, which I think is biomechanically insignificant. Regarding the issue of what represents an elite ball-striker, I regard them all as being elite ball-strikers because they can all play at PGA tour level.

You also wrote-: "I have found many professional golfers with bent left arms at impact that flip but virtually no professional golfers with extended left arms that DH. The reason is obvious: extending the elbow also predisposes extension of the wrist, just as flexion of the elbow predisposes flexion of the wrist.

When you claim that you cannot find professional golfers with extended left arms that are DHers, I think that it is a sure sign that you are not really looking. Dustin Johnson and Adam Scott and Justin Rose and Camilio Villegas and Henrik Stenson all have very straight left arms at impact, and they are all DHers. Your statement that extending the left elbow predisposes to left wrist extension, and that left elbow flexion predisposes to left wrist flexion, is an opinion that is without any scientific merit. There is simply no scientific justification for harboring that KM-derived koolaid belief.

Your collection of golfers with an extended left arm who are are flipping only shows that you able to collect images of professional golfers who flip, and who also happen to have a straight left arm at impact. It doesn't prove that there is any cause-and-effect relationship. It is no wonder that you are so susceptible to KM's koolaid beliefs eg. that early left forearm supination closes the clubface.

Jeff.

[tomdavis76]

OK, here are the first nine players you listed. None are in left shoulder ER at impact and only Adam Scott and Camilo appear to be close to an extended left arm. However, their left shoulders are very much in IR, so, neither is in a comparable position to the Hogan drawing. Also, their right shoulders are very much in ER and the right arms very much adducted, which adds stability.








Again, the ball is in your court. Post a player with a DH release who has, at impact, the left shoulder in ER and a fully extended left arm.

[tomdavis76]

Dec 25, 2013 19:57:08 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

When you claim that you cannot find professional golfers with extended left arms that are DHers, I think that it is a sure sign that you are not really looking. Dustin Johnson and Adam Scott and Justin Rose and Camilio Villegas and Henrik Stenson all have very straight left arms at impact, and they are all DHers. Your statement that extending the left elbow predisposes to left wrist extension, and that left elbow flexion predisposes to left wrist flexion, is an opinion that is without any scientific merit. There is simply no scientific justification for harboring that KM-derived koolaid belief.

First, none of those players resemble the Hogan drawing, with left shoulder ER and an extended left arm at impact.

Second, Stenson's left arm is bent at impact.



Third, DJ, Scott and Camilo have very deep right shoulder ER and right arm adduction, that adds stability. Not every DHer needs bicep contraction, but it can't hurt.




Fourth, Justin Rose is not a DHer: he is an underflipper with a right-side rolling release.





Once again, let's see some evidence that supports your position: produce one professional golfer that DH's and, at impact, has left shoulder ER, left arm extension, right shoulder IR and right arm abduction. You claim that a tour-quality player can DH with those elements. Let's see one.

[imperfectgolfer]

Jeffy,

You wrote-: "None are in left shoulder ER at impact and only Adam Scott and Camilo appear to be close to an extended left arm."

I have no clear idea how you define an extended left arm. I define it simply as a straight left arm eg. Dustin Johnson's or Adam Scott's or Justin Rose's or Henrik Stensons' left arm at impact. You presumably define an extended left arm as a hyperextended left arm, but I don't - because I think that a golfer should never hyperextend the left arm and I believe that the left arm should be comfortably straight, which means that there can be a very small degree of bend at the left elbow.

I don't know why you are referring to ER of the left humerus at impact. I have never stated that a golfer should have ER of the left humerus at impact.

Here is an image of me demonstrating different left hand grip strengths.



Image 3 shows a very strong left hand grip appearance, which requires a lot of left forearm pronation. Note that my left antecubital fossa faces directly away from the target, which is definitely IR, and not ER.

Image 2 shows a 2-3 knuckle left hand grip where the left forearm is slightly less fully pronated and where the left antecubital fossa is rotated approximately 10 degrees counterclockwise, but it is still not in ER.

Image 1 shows a weak 1-knuckle left hand grip. There is very little pronation of the left forearm, and I regard the left forerarm alignment as neutral. I think that the left antecubital fossa is rotated about 30 degrees counterclockwise (compared to image 3) but that is what I regard as neutral, and it does not represent ER.

I have no idea why you expect me to believe/show that any skilled professional golfer would have ER of the left humerus at impact - especially considering the fact that most pro golfers do not adopt a weak left hand grip.

Regarding that Five Lessons book drawing, I have already stated that it is incorrect and that it is about 20 degrees over-rotated counterclockwise. I have only seen that left elbow alignment in very few "real life" professional golfers who have a very weak grip.

By the way, my original post never focused on a discussion of ER of the left humerus, but it was primarily targeted at your exposition of KM's irrational idea that the left elbow must be bent at impact to be capable of performing a stable DH-hand release action.

Finally, you wrote-: "Second, Stenson's left arm is bent at impact."

That may apply to your alternate mental universe but it doesn't apply to mine. If I draw a linear line down the left arm from the shoulder socket to the left hand on the side of the left arm that is closest to the target - that line is straight, and not bent.

Jeff.

[tomdavis76]

Dec 25, 2013 22:09:12 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

Jeffy,

You wrote-: "None are in left shoulder ER at impact and only Adam Scott and Camilo appear to be close to an extended left arm."

I have no clear idea how you define an extended left arm. I define it simply as a straight left arm eg. Dustin Johnson's or Adam Scott's or Justin Rose's left arm at impact. You presumably define an extended left arm as a hyperextended left arm, but I don't - because I think that a golfer should never hyperextend the left arm and I believe that the left arm should be comfortably straight, which means that there can be a very small degree of bend at the left elbow.

I don't know why you are referring to ER of the left humerus at impact. I have never stated that a golfer should have ER of the left humerus at impact.

I have no idea why you expect me to believe/show that any skilled professional golfer would have ER of the left humerus at impact - especially considering the fact that most pro golfers do not adopt a weak left hand grip.

By the way, my original post never focused on a discussion of ER of the left humerus,

Don't try to rewrite history, from the OP:

He states that it misrepresents Hogan's "real life" left arm alignment at impact because it indicates ER of the left humerus. I don't see that phenomenon. I think that it looks neutral - with the antecubital fossa facing about 60-70 degrees away from the target.

I don't think that there is a biomechanically-significant difference between that drawing and a photo of Hogan's "real life" swing.

There is only a slightly greater degree of IR of Hogan's left humerus in that photo - compared to the drawing. Both images also show an extended left arm, and not a significantly bent left elbow.

Jeffy wants to prove that Hogan's left humerus was more internally rotated at impact because he believes (without providing any scientific evidence/reasoning) in the following statement that he made-: "However, we know that an externally rotated left shoulder, with the elbow facing the target, and a contracted left bicep, with a slight bend at the elbow, is a more stable release pattern".

I presume that the bold-highlighted statement is a typo, and that he really meant IR of the left humerus.

but it was primarily targeted at your exposition of KM's irrational idea that the left elbow must be bent at impact to be capable of performing a stable DH-hand release action.

Jeff.

Where does Kel say "must"?

[tomdavis76]

Dec 25, 2013 22:09:12 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

Finally, you wrote-: "Second, Stenson's left arm is bent at impact."

That may apply to your alternate mental universe but it doesn't apply to mine. If I draw a linear line down the left arm from the shoulder socket to the left hand on the side of the left arm that is closest to the target - that line is straight, and not bent.

Jeff.

This should help: Henrik's left arm is bent, Natalie's is straight.

[imperfectgolfer]

Jeffy,

It could be that KM didn't say that all golfers "must" have a bent left elbow at impact, but you certainly implied that a golfer must have a bent left elbow and contracted left biceps muscle at impact when you stated-: "However, we know that an internally rotated left shoulder, with the elbow facing the target, and a contracted left bicep, with a slight bend at the elbow, is a more stable release pattern"

You have never explained why a bent left elbow produces a more stable DH-hand release action than a golfer with a straight left arm (using my definition of straight).

By the way, I will not waste my time answering questions about the right shoulder/arm because I think that they play no critical role in creating a stable DH-hand release action in golfers who use a full-roll DH-hand release action.

You also wrote-: "This should help: Henrik's left arm is bent, Natalie's is straight.".

That may apply to your mental universe. In my mental universe HS's left arm is straight (comfortably straight) while Natalie's left arm looks hyperextended. Many female pro golfers have a hyperextended left arm, which I do not recommend. I only recommend a straight left arm - as demonstrated by Henrik Stenson.

Henrik Stenson



Jeff.

p.s. I corrected the typo in your quoted statement.

[tomdavis76]

Dec 25, 2013 22:32:39 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

Jeffy,

It could be that KM didn't say that all golfers "must" have a bent left elbow at impact, but you certainly implied that a golfer must have a bent left elbow and contracted left biceps muscle at impact when you stated-: "However, we know that an internally rotated left shoulder, with the elbow facing the target, and a contracted left bicep, with a slight bend at the elbow, is a more stable release pattern

[/i]"[/b][/quote]

Absolute rubbish. The "must" is simply your strawman.

You have never explained why a bent left elbow produces a more stable DH-hand release action than a golfer with a straight left arm (using my definition of straight).

That is simply a bald-faced lie. Kel explains it in his articles and I have explained it. You just don't want to believe it.

By the way, I will not waste my time answering questions about the right shoulder/arm because I think that they play no critical role in creating a stable DH-hand release action in golfers who use a full-roll DH-hand release action.

Jeff.

p.s. I corrected the typo in your quoted statement.

Believe whatever foolishness you want. But, if you can't back up your ideas with evidence, don't expect anyone to believe you. So far, you've got nothing.

[imperfectgolfer]

Jeffy,

You wrote-: "That is simply a bald-faced lie. Kel explains it in his articles and I have explained it. You just don't want to believe it."

You are correct - However, I find your KM-provided explanation irrational, so I will modify my original stement to better reflect my personal opinion by inserting the word "rationally" into my original statement.

Here is my modified assertion-: "You have never rationally explained why a bent left elbow produces a more stable DH-hand release action than a golfer with a straight left arm (using my definition of straight).

You also wrote-: "Absolute rubbish. The "must" is simply your strawman"

OK. Ignore the word "must" and simply consider the word "more" in your personal quote that you highlighted by enlarging the type. How can having a bent left elbow at impact produce a more stable DH-release than having a straight left arm (like Henrik Stenson's left arm, which fits my definition of "straight") at impact?

Jeff.