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Post by utahgolfer on Aug 29, 2019 22:59:51 GMT -5
I had a teaching pro suggest that Sergio is a right arm hitter and not a left arm swinger because of his under plane move at the beginning of his downswing. And, that Sergio likely uses his right hand to recover and get back on plane by p7. What is your opinion? Do you believe Sergio is a hitter or a swinger?
In addition, the teaching pro suggested that Sergio's under plane move creates a timing issue for Sergio and causes him to be relatively inconsistent in hitting fairways and greens over time, and has no better stats than Phil Mickelsen who swings down his turned shoulder plane. Do you agree with this assessment, that even though Sergio has a large PA3 angle and a relatively low rate of closure, he has significant timing issues due to his initial under plane downswing?
UG
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Aug 30, 2019 7:29:47 GMT -5
Imho, SG uses a club release (some call it a CF-induced release) dependent on hand speed/path which defines a swinger. He also uses a pitch-elbow move while hitters tend to use a punch elbow.
He might be a right arm swinger but maybe Dr Mann will provide a more accurate insight.
DG
PS. I thought SG was 'on plane' (ie . clubshaft tracing the 'straight plane line') from P5 although shifting planes down to hand plane? Not sure about his driving accuracy , doesn't it vary between 58-62% over 10 years?
Phil seems to vary between 52-58% over a period of 10 years (lower to mid 50's in the last 3 years)
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 30, 2019 16:21:19 GMT -5
I had a teaching pro suggest that Sergio is a right arm hitter and not a left arm swinger because of his under plane move at the beginning of his downswing. And, that Sergio likely uses his right hand to recover and get back on plane by p7. What is your opinion? Do you believe Sergio is a hitter or a swinger? In addition, the teaching pro suggested that Sergio's under plane move creates a timing issue for Sergio and causes him to be relatively inconsistent in hitting fairways and greens over time, and has no better stats than Phil Mickelsen who swings down his turned shoulder plane. Do you agree with this assessment, that even though Sergio has a large PA3 angle and a relatively low rate of closure, he has significant timing issues due to his initial under plane downswing? UG Sergio does have a large clubshaft shallowing move between P4 and P5.5, but I cannot understand the teaching pro's claim that he therefore has to use his right hand as a recovery tool thereby making him a "hitter". What does he claim that Sergio's right hand is actually doing in its recovery role and why does that mean that he is a hitter? I personally think that Sergio uses a TGM swinging action and he simply shallows his clubshaft down to the hand plane by P5.5. Here are capture images of Sergio's mid-late downswing. Note that Sergio's clubshaft is already on the hand plane by P5.5 because of his large clubshaft shallowing action during his early downswing. Most importantly, note that he is using a pitch elbow motion of his right elbow where - i) his right elbow is in front of his right hip area; ii) his right forearm is markedly supinated so that iii) his right palm is under-and-behind the club handle. Those biomechanical features are characteristic of a TGM swinger, and not a TGM hitter (who would have his right elbow more behind his right shirt seam and who would be using a punch elbow motion, and not a pitch elbow motion).
Note that his clubhead moves under his hands at P6 (image 2) and approaches impact along an underplane path (images 3 and 4). However, that is simply due to the fact that his left arm is more vertical and not outstretched (like Phil Mickelson's lead arm), and because he has a large accumulator #3 angle. That biomechanical combination makes his clubhead path between P6 and impact more conically pendular, where the degree of clubface rotation per unit amount of clubhead travel is less. That scenario theoretically makes it easier to time the release of PA#3, which is required to square the clubface by impact. I cannot understand why the teaching pro thinks that this scenario would make his pre-impact timing worse. However, there is one possible explanation for a timing problem happening through impact, which could be causally related to Sergio having a vertical lead arm and large accumulator #3 angle through impact, and that is the scenario where Sergio transitions too soon into a finish swivel action very soon after impact by using a non-delayed full roll hand release action and where he does does not have a stable clubface for long enough between P7 and P7.2+.
Here are capture images of Sergio's followthrough.
Image 4 is at impact where Sergio has his hands very close to his body and where his lead arm is near-vertical, while his clubshaft is on a shallower plane due to his large accumulator #3 angle.
Note that Sergio then has a lot of lead arm/forearm counterclockwise roll between impact and P7.4 (image 5) where the back of his lead wrist-hand rotates a lot counterclockwise and I wonder whether his propensity to often use a non-DH hand release action could be a more probable cause of an inconsistent ball flight accuracy problem.
Here is another example of a very poor non-DH hand release action where Sergio actually flips through impact.
Here are capture images of his followthrough.
Image 1 is at impact, image 2 is at P7.2 and image 3 is at P7.4.
Note how Sergio stalls the targetwards motion of his left arm at impact while excessively straightening his right wrist => note how his left wrist bends (extends) and how the clubshaft flips passed his stalled left arm.
That is a very sub-optimal hand release action through impact and could produce a high ROC through impact.
Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Aug 30, 2019 16:41:47 GMT -5
Here is a slow motion video of SG (back in 2012) where if you really slow it down at 0:41 , you can see the non-DH hand release action that Dr Mann mentions above. Where I think the shaft has bypassed the left arm from a rotational perspective before P7.2
And here is a video where he analyses his own swing issues, although I don't understand some of his reasoning.
DG
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Aug 30, 2019 17:58:30 GMT -5
Dr Mann
What is causing the stalling of SG's left arm? It looks a bit bent in image 1 at impact.
DG
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Post by utahgolfer on Aug 30, 2019 19:29:06 GMT -5
I will invite my teaching pro friend to join this forum. Of course, Jeff Mann is my hero and is the Sir Isaac Newton of the golf swing and DG you are a bird of the same feather. Thanks for your insightful conversation. It seems like Sergio and his coaches could benefit greatly from this information, as I believe it would be relatively easy for him to DH and keep his left arm and club shaft at the same angular velocity until at least p7.5. In this case, knowledge could lead to both power and accuracy.
UG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 30, 2019 22:33:43 GMT -5
Dr Mann What is causing the stalling of SG's left arm? It looks a bit bent in image 1 at impact. DG I think that Sergio - despite having many, many positive golf swing attributes - does not use the golf swing fundamentals that are needed to be a great DHer. To convert to becoming a consistently superb DHer, a golfer has to think of swinging the lead arm actively through impact with enough vigor to allow the left arm to have the same angular velocity as the clubshaft, thereby allowing one to maintain an intact LAFW to P7.2 (or even better to P7.4). Secondly, a golfer needs to ensure that the right shoulder keeps moving forward under the chin so that one does not run-out-of-right arm. Thirdly, one needs to actively open the pelvis and upper torso during the followthrough so that the two arms can more easily move targetwards in an unimpeded manner. Cameron Champ manifests all those 3 biomechanical elements in this following golf swing sequence. Sergio does not manifest those three biomechanical elements, and he sometimes transitions into a finish swivel action too soon after impact. Rarely, he simply stalls his targetwards motion of his left arm through impact and then actively (albeit unconsciously) straightens the right arm/wrist to compensate. It is not uncommon for a golfer to chicken-wing the left arm, and bend the left elbow, when not continuing to actively swing a straight left arm targetwards well into the followthrough. Jim Hardy actually teaches a chicken-winging action for his LOP release action that he recommends for two-planars - as seen in the following video.
Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Aug 31, 2019 6:00:12 GMT -5
Many thanks Dr Mann
DG
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Aug 31, 2019 18:26:27 GMT -5
Dr Mann - apologies but I have one more question
When reading your 2 comments below , can one assume that SG is not applying enough power between P4 and P5.5 to allow enough residual lead arm angular velocity to become a DHer?
"However, in a golf robot club-testing machine and a pro golfer's driver swing (which both work according to the principle of the double pendulum swing model) swing power is only applied to the central arm (lead arm in a golfer) between P4 and P5.5 and the lead arm slows down during the later downswing."
"To convert to becoming a consistently superb DHer, a golfer has to think of swinging the lead arm actively through impact with enough vigor to allow the left arm to have the same angular velocity as the clubshaft, thereby allowing one to maintain an intact LAFW to P7.2 (or even better to P7.4)"
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 1, 2019 7:04:59 GMT -5
Dr Mann - apologies but I have one more question When reading your 2 comments below , can one assume that SG is not applying enough power between P4 and P5.5 to allow enough residual lead arm angular velocity to become a DHer? "However, in a golf robot club-testing machine and a pro golfer's driver swing (which both work according to the principle of the double pendulum swing model) swing power is only applied to the central arm (lead arm in a golfer) between P4 and P5.5 and the lead arm slows down during the later downswing." "To convert to becoming a consistently superb DHer, a golfer has to think of swinging the lead arm actively through impact with enough vigor to allow the left arm to have the same angular velocity as the clubshaft, thereby allowing one to maintain an intact LAFW to P7.2 (or even better to P7.4)" DG A tendency for the left arm to stall between P7 and P7.4 is partly due to less swing power being applied to the left arm during the release of PA#4, but it could be mainly due to swing technique. If you watch the Jim Hardy video where he explains the LOP hand release action, he specifically instructs golfers to deliberately slow down the targetwards motion of the left arm through impact while inducing the right arm to become the major force moving the club and where a golfer should deliberately pronate the right forearm and straighten the right wrist through impact. In other words, a golfer could potentially have the swing power ability to release PA#4 with enough force so that there is enough residual targetwards motion of the left arm through impact to allow the left arm to maintain the same angular velocity as the clubshaft, but he may not apply that swing power in practice because he is mentally indoctrinated by the "idea" of performing a LOP hand release action through impact. Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Sept 1, 2019 7:28:33 GMT -5
Many thanks Dr Mann
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