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Post by dubiousgolfer on Nov 26, 2019 10:52:25 GMT -5
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Nov 26, 2019 11:43:36 GMT -5
I cannot recommend any articles written by Kelvin Miyahira because I disagree so much with his biomechanical reasoning and opinions. Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Nov 28, 2019 11:02:16 GMT -5
KM has created some table to define 'Clubface Opening and Closing' moves (but with reference to what? Club path , ball target line or some other reference?). Then he used subsets of these 'moves' to describe David Duvals downswing.
"Duval uses left wrist slight extension, left shoulder IR, left forearm slight pronation, rotates well, right forearm supination, right wrist moves toward flexion, holds right shoulder ER till just before impact then uses IR. The result is a stable release pattern that is repeatable. So he uses 5 out of 7 moves to hold off release since he’s a bit closed at the top of the backswing and only two, right shoulder IR and body rotation to close the clubface. The sum of all the parts = a very repeatable fade."
He seems to have made some observations and identified 'moves' but then made a theoretical opinion of cause and effect but it's very vague. He has not gone into any detail describing Duvals swing (using these moves) to explain different phases of the downswing.
The articles are too obscure but I did find some of the Phantom camera videos about clubface closure and 'Gear' effect quite interesting.
DG
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Post by syllogist on Nov 28, 2019 12:59:26 GMT -5
Hi DG, Over the years I've read many of KM's articles. There's an amusing kind of irony with regard to his writings. He focuses on numerous anatomical movements where he views certain ones as beneficial and others not so. He provides examples of elite players and categorizes them, often times as justification for his theories relating to those anatomical movements. Duval employs 5 of 7 movements to hold off release? I guess that the missing 2 aren't that important. It's even possible that fewer are necessary. You might find the short video below interesting where Duval talked a bit about his swing philosophy. He doesn't quite accomplish his intent to "swing over the plane" as much as he demonstrates since he shallows the club a bit at transition but, nonetheless, he succeeds in hitting golf's equivalent of a "slider." www.youtube.com/watch?v=abi13_M_ykEHappy Thanksgiving. S
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Nov 28, 2019 13:30:02 GMT -5
S, I found that David Duval video hilariously nonsensical! He states that he wants to straighten his right wrist at the start of the downswing so that he can get the clubshaft to move over-the-plane. Here is the reality - based on capture images from his video!
Image 1 is at P4 and image 2 is at P6. Note that he still has a bent-back right wrist at P6 and there is no evidence of right wrist straightening or any evidence of the right palm getting on top of the clubshaft - note that his right forearm is supinated with his right palm under the clubshaft at P6.
Also, his clubshaft moved under his backswing's clubhead plane arc and he is shallowing his clubshaft, and not moving it over-the-plane.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Nov 28, 2019 13:36:45 GMT -5
DG, You wrote-: "Duval uses left wrist slight extension, left shoulder IR, left forearm slight pronation, rotates well, right forearm supination, right wrist moves toward flexion, holds right shoulder ER till just before impact then uses IR. The result is a stable release pattern that is repeatable. So he uses 5 out of 7 moves to hold off release since he’s a bit closed at the top of the backswing and only two, right shoulder IR and body rotation to close the clubface. The sum of all the parts = a very repeatable fade."
What is a "hold-off" hand release action and how does DD's biomechanical elements of i) left wrist extension, ii) left shoulder IR, iii) left forearm slight pronation and iv) right wrist moves towards flexion produce a "hold-off" hand release action?
Jeff.
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Post by syllogist on Nov 28, 2019 14:04:21 GMT -5
Dr. Mann,
Yes, I agree! ... for the live of me I can't understand how these talented golfers cannot comprehend at even a simple level what it is that they actually do. At least Duval correctly noted his body rotation! I know you're curious about KM's theories about delaying the release but, if I were you, I wouldn't waste my intellectual energy. He hasn't a clue what is going on.
S
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Nov 28, 2019 17:08:39 GMT -5
DG, You wrote-: "Duval uses left wrist slight extension, left shoulder IR, left forearm slight pronation, rotates well, right forearm supination, right wrist moves toward flexion, holds right shoulder ER till just before impact then uses IR. The result is a stable release pattern that is repeatable. So he uses 5 out of 7 moves to hold off release since he’s a bit closed at the top of the backswing and only two, right shoulder IR and body rotation to close the clubface. The sum of all the parts = a very repeatable fade."
What is a "hold-off" hand release action and how does DD's biomechanical elements of i) left wrist extension, ii) left shoulder IR, iii) left forearm slight pronation and iv) right wrist moves towards flexion produce a "hold-off" hand release action?
Jeff.
Dr Mann I haven't got a clue because that was a quote from KM's article (link below) kelvinmiyahiragolf-articles.com/index.php/articles/articles-2/2016-articles/158-2016-06-face-angle-survey-of-major-winners-clubface-angle-at-the-top-of-backswingFrom his 'table' of moves for opening and closing the clubface. David Duvals ' Opening Clubface' moves are caused by: Left shoulder IR Left forearm pronation Right forearm supination Left wrist extension Right wrist flexion David Duvals ' Closing Clubface' moves are caused by: Good rotation (whatever that means) Right Shoulder IR He then goes on to say the below: "To further complicate matters more, this is a mix ‘n match situation. Rarely is someone going to do all closing or all opening moves or they will be consistent slicers or hookers. The timing of these moves is also critical and the bottom line is that the sum of all these moves gives you an idea of what the clubface will be doing at impact. All you need is a camera to shoot at a high enough frame rate and high shutter speed in order to start looking the impact movements (No computer or 3D software is going to do it for you). "As I said before, his articles are very vague. DG PS. Not sure why KM thinks 'left wrist extension' and 'right wrist flexion' will open the clubface. Also he seems to be using the clubface orientation at P4 'relative to the ground' when comparing a golfers old and new swing . I think its too simplistic for KM to pinpoint one aspect of a golfers swing change and then state that is the cause of their poor performance.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Nov 28, 2019 17:27:38 GMT -5
Hi DG, Over the years I've read many of KM's articles. There's an amusing kind of irony with regard to his writings. He focuses on numerous anatomical movements where he views certain ones as beneficial and others not so. He provides examples of elite players and categorizes them, often times as justification for his theories relating to those anatomical movements. Duval employs 5 of 7 movements to hold off release? I guess that the missing 2 aren't that important. It's even possible that fewer are necessary. You might find the short video below interesting where Duval talked a bit about his swing philosophy. He doesn't quite accomplish his intent to "swing over the plane" as much as he demonstrates since he shallows the club a bit at transition but, nonetheless, he succeeds in hitting golf's equivalent of a "slider." www.youtube.com/watch?v=abi13_M_ykEHappy Thanksgiving. S Hi S Happy Thanksgiving (although we don't have that in the UK). DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Nov 28, 2019 19:24:11 GMT -5
S, You wrote-: " I know you're curious about KM's theories about delaying the release but, if I were you, I wouldn't waste my intellectual energy. He hasn't a clue what is going on". I have read every KM article many times a number of years ago - and I have relentlessly criticized his reasoning in some of my review papers and in many NGI forum posts a few years ago. He apparently had a massive stroke a few years ago, which explains why there are no new articles for anyone to study/analyze. Jeff Martin started a golf forum to propogate KM's opinions regarding golf swing biomechanics - jeffygolf.com/forum.php - but there has been no activity there for ~ 3 years. There are many posts in that forum where Jeff Martin attacked me with considerable vehemence! He frequently called me a "psychopath" and that label was an example of a much more benign type of insult hurled at me by Jeffy compared to his more vehemently expressed insults! Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Nov 29, 2019 18:59:07 GMT -5
I've spend a fair few hours going through the jeffygolf forum and Dr Mann's responses on the NIG link below. newtongolfinstitute.proboards.com/thread/531/groupies-love-spine-engine-theoryWas that a real post by Serge Gracovetsky or someone from Jeffygolf forum pretending to be him? I tried putting my spine in excessive lumbar lordosis (with anterior pelvic tilt) and tried to lateral side bend , but of course it only bent in the thoracic spine area and I didn't really feel any pelvic rotation impulse (it was quite a strain on my back to be honest). Just wondering why Jeffy forum members didn't just personally test out this 'spine engine' themselves rather than continue to promote some unproven theory. DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Nov 29, 2019 19:16:44 GMT -5
I've spend a fair few hours going through the jeffygolf forum and Dr Mann's responses on the NIG link below. newtongolfinstitute.proboards.com/thread/531/groupies-love-spine-engine-theoryWas that a real post by Serge Gracovetsky or someone from Jeffygolf forum pretending to be him? I tried putting my spine in excessive lumbar lordosis (with anterior pelvic tilt) and tried to lateral side bend , but of course it only bent in the thoracic spine area and I didn't really feel any pelvic rotation impulse (it was quite a strain on my back to be honest). Just wondering why Jeffy forum members didn't just personally test out this 'spine engine' themselves rather than continue to promote some unproven theory. DG I really don't know if that post was really by Serge Gracovetsky - although his manner of expressing himself in that post is very similar to the manner that SG expressed himself in his video conferences. If one types the word "jeffy" in the NGI golf forum's search engine, you will discover that there are many threads involving an interaction between Jeffy and me. Jeffy even joined the NGI golf forum for a short period and he produced many posts, but I eventually banned him for repeatedly insulting me in an overtly ad hominem manner. Jeff.
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