How To Shallow The Club Like A Major Champion

[dubiousgolfer]

Dr Mann

Milo has referred me to his video below. Not sure who Dr Bull is to be honest - first time I've ever heard of him.



DG

[imperfectgolfer]

DG,

I think that Milo has got it totally wrong and I disagree 100% with his reasoning.

Milo states that the cause of the clubshaft shallowing is due to the pivot action (specifically the counterclockwise rotation of the pelvis that initiates the torso's pivot motion) that he believes causes i) increased left arm adduction; ii) increased internal rotation of the left humerus; and iii) increased right lateral bend.

First of all, I do not believe that right lateral bend happens secondary to the counterclockwise rotation of the pelvis and I believe that it is a distinctly separate upper torso motional phenomenon that a golfer has to enact during his downswing so that he can get his right shoulder moving more downplane (rather than too much outwards in an OTT manner).

Secondly, it is true that some pro golfers may increase their degree of left arm adduction between P4 and P5, but many do not.

Let's look at Dustin Johnson.

Image 1 is at P4 and image 3 is at P5. I can see no evidence that DJ is adducting his left arm more against his chest wall between P4 and P5. More importantly, how could increased left arm adduction (if it actually happens) cause clubshaft shallowing? Milo opined in his video that it is due to increased internal rotation of the left humerus. However, there is no evidence that DJ is internally rotating his left humerus more between P4 and P5.

Also, note that at P5, DJ does not yet have any right lateral bend.

Here are back view images of DJ's downswing.

 

Image 3 is at P4 and image 4 is at P5.

Note that he does not have right lateral bend of his thoracic spine at P5 - even though the right side of his upper torso looks more "crunched up" due to scapular protraction and scapula depression and due to "bunching-up" of his right shoulder girdle muscles that are causing his active right arm adduction maneuver.

Right lateral bend happens between P5 and P5.5 in DJ's downswing action.

Image 2 is at P5 and image 3 is at P5.5. Note that there is no right lateral bend of his thoracic spine at P5 and it is only becoming more clearly apparent at P5.5.

Therefore, right lateral bend is not causally responsible for clubshaft shallowing between P4 and P5 because it is not present, and it can only assist a golfer to shallow the clubshaft after P5 by allowing the right shoulder socket to move downplane.

I believe that clubshaft shallowing between P4 and P5.5 is primarily due to forearm rotation and I believe that it requires an active right arm adduction maneuver incorporating a pitch elbow motion.

Let's start off by examining the baseball player's bat shallowing action that Milo features at the start of his video.

Note how much the baseball player is shallowing his bat between image 1 and image 4.

I can agree that his left arm is becoming more adducted in image 2 and image 3 , but it is clearly abducting in image 4.

I can see no evidence that his left humerus is becoming significantly more internally rotated between image 1 and image 4 - which would cause his left olecranon to face more skywards.

However, he is definitely performing a bat (club) shallowing action - as evidenced by the fact that the back of his left hand (and watchface area of his left lower forearm) is becoming progressively more horizontal to the ground between image 1 and image 4 and it is biomechanically due to increased left forearm pronation.

Now, let's look at what is happening to his trailing arm between image 1 and image 4.

In image 1, i) his right humerus is abducted, ii) his right humerus is internally rotated, and iii) his right forearm is neutral.

Look at what happens to those right arm/forearm alignments between image 2 => image 4. Note i) that his right upper arm becomes increasingly adducted, ii) his right humerus becomes externally rotated by image 4, and iii) his right forearm becomes frankly supinated by image 4. Note that he is clearly performing a pitch elbow motion of his right elbow where his right elbow leads the right hand and where the right forearm becomes increasingly supinated so that the right palm faces skywards by image 4 and his right palm is now under his bat.

It is clearly obvious to me that he he is shallowing his bat between image 1 and image 4 by using an active right arm adduction maneuver combined with a pitch elbow motion of the right elbow.

Here is Dustin Johnson's clubshaft shallowing action.

Note how much DJ has shallowed his clubshaft between P4 (image 1) and P5.5 (image 2).

Note that the watchface area of his left lower forearm is more horizontally aligned at P5.5 compared to P4, and it is obviously due to increased left forearm pronation and not due to increased internal rotation of his left humerus.

Note how DJ is performing an active right arm adduction maneuver combined with a pitch elbow motion of his right elbow that causes his right palm to face skywards at P5.5 with his right palm under the club handle, and that requires a lot of right forearm supination.

In his video, Milo stated that he did not like the idea of using forearm rotation to shallow the clubshaft between P4 and P5.5 because he thought that it would cause the clubface to be too open at P5.5. However, why should that be a problem?

Here is Lee Trevino at P5.5.

Note how much he has shallowed his clubshaft by P5.5 and note that his clubface is wide open.

Here is Sergio Garcia at P5.5.

Note how much Sergio has shallowed his clubshaft by P5.5 and his clubface is wide open.

I think that having a wide open clubface at P5.5 is naturally expected if a golfer has a neutral left hand grip and intact LFFW action (like Sergio) and if he shallows the clubshaft a lot between P4 and P5.5 (like Sergio), but it is not a problem from a clubface-squaring perspective because that's the natural function of a PA#3 release action (which Sergio easily enacts between P5.5 and impact).

Jeff.

[dubiousgolfer]

Great analysis Dr Mann

DG

[utahgolfer]

Jeff, a very nice review of Milo's video. It is clear the pitched right elbow maneuver and forearm rotation create club shaft shallowing from p4 to p5.5.

i just had three questions:

What do you mean by "I do not believe that right lateral bend happens secondary to the counterclockwise rotation of the pelvis"? You have said many times that CCW pelvic rotation facilitates right lateral bend. Are you simply saying that right lateral bend doesn't happen immediately with the onset of pelvic rotation?

Is the "distinctly separate upper torso motional phenomenon that a golfer has to enact during his downswing so that he can get his right shoulder moving more downplane (rather than too much outwards in an OTT manner)" basically the pitched right elbow maneuver?

What are the "bunched up" muscles you are referring to, that cause right scapular protraction and depression?

UG

[imperfectgolfer]

UG,


What do you mean by "I do not believe that right lateral bend happens secondary to the counterclockwise rotation of the pelvis"? You have said many times that CCW pelvic rotation facilitates right lateral bend. Are you simply saying that right lateral bend doesn't happen immediately with the onset of pelvic rotation?

When I state that pelvic rotation facilitates the possibility of right lateral bend, then I mean that if the pelvis is becoming more open than the upper torso after P5 (because the pelvis is leading the upper torso from a rotational perspective in the standard kinematic sequence), then it is biomechanically easier to side-bend the upper torso into a condition of right lateral bend if the golfer decides to use right lateral bend during his mid-downswing action.

Is the "distinctly separate upper torso motional phenomenon that a golfer has to enact during his downswing so that he can get his right shoulder moving more downplane (rather than too much outwards in an OTT manner)" basically the pitched right elbow maneuver?

No. It is the right lateral bend phenomenon that allows the right shoulder socket to move more downplane (in a more ferris-wheel manner) rather than moving too horizontally (in a more merry-go-round manner) during the mid-late downswing.

What are the "bunched up" muscles you are referring to, that cause right scapular protraction and depression?

I suspect that lattisimus dorsi and serratus anterior (inferior part that inserts near the scapula angle) are the two major muscle groups.

Jeff.

[imperfectgolfer]

In my previous post, I wrote the following-: "When I state that pelvic rotation facilitates the possibility of right lateral bend, then I mean that if the pelvis is becoming more open than the upper torso after P5 (because the pelvis is leading the upper torso from a rotational perspective in the standard kinematic sequence), then it is biomechanically easier to side-bend the upper torso into a condition of right lateral bend if the golfer decides to use right lateral bend during his mid-downswing action."

Note that I stated that right lateral bend is optional, and not obligatory, and it does not necessarily happen automatically/mandatorily simply as a result of pelvic rotation (as Milo implied in his video).

Right lateral bend is mainly used by golfers who shallow the clubshaft, and it is not necessary (but optional) if a golfer decides not to shallow the clubshaft between P4 => P5.5.

Phil Mickelson is an example of a golfer who does not shallow his clubshaft between P4 => P5.5 in his driver swing action - as seen in the following capture images.

The red line is the TSP.

Image 1 is at P4 and image 4 is at P5.5, and one can note that PM does not shallow his clubshaft between P4 => P5.5.

So, it is not surprising that PM does not use any side-bend of his upper torso's trailing side (away from the target) between P4 and P5.5 - as seen in the following capture images.

Image 1 is at P4, image 2 is at P5 and image 3 is at P5.5.

Jeff.