The throw out method doesn't make much sense

[utahgolfer]

Here is a video from Steve Pratt on Eric Cogorno's channel discussing a method to increase club head speed and driving distance.





The basic idea is a casting motion (left wrist ulnar deviation) from p4, directing the club head rearward and farther from the target, to p5.5, as fast as possible. Steve calls this "the throw out method" and claims that this is how tour players hit the ball so far. He states that the throw out move is just one component of the swing that is blended with body rotation, arm swing, and proper timing.

I believe Homer Kelley would call this a PA#2, PA#4, PA#3 sequence, or a throw away method.

I believe Greg Rose/TPI would say that this doesn't follow the kinematic sequence of tour players, where the club head does not accelerate significantly until after p5.5.

I believe Jeff Mann would say this method is nonsensical, and I look forward to his response to this thread.

I believe other forum members will agree that this method is problematic, and I look forward to any input.

I believe this method is similar to the Malaska move, but on a more acceptable club head path. It promotes a swing tip that amateurs would find easy to do, as the early release of PA#2 requires no swing skill, other than directing the club head backward and outward. I believe this method violates the principle of swinging from the inside out, or from proximal to distal. I believe it is the pelvis, torso, and arms that need to move sequentially fast from p4, not the club head. The club needs to move fast gradually and reach peak speed at impact. I believe only players with a very fast pivot could make the throw out method workable, as they could more easily sync up the body, arms, and club. But, it is certainly not recommended for any player. A player with a slow pivot could certainly not make this method work as the club head and arms would race ahead of the pivot, causing a loss of power and accuracy. It might feel more powerful during practice swings, but the physics of their ball flight would not lie during actual golf shots. Adding any extra force to promote an early release of PA#2 would make the impact zone very unstable with an early flip roll release. It would be impossible to retain forward shaft lean, a drive-hold release with the shaft not passing the left arm until after p7, or a stable and gradual rate of club face closure through the impact zone.

Its only utility might be to show players what not to do, although it may serve to motivate some players to move their pivot faster to keep up with the early casting club head. A player who could drive-hold using the throw out method would be impressive and doing this might serve as a possible exaggeration drill. But, it definitely is nonsensical, problematic, and counterproductive golf swing instruction.

UG

[imperfectgolfer]

To label this video nonsensical would not be right!

It is better to label it as being ridiculously nonsensical!!!

Jeff.

[imperfectgolfer]

Here is a link to Steve Pratt's opinions on the timing of the release (release of PA#2).

hititlonger.com/mike-austin-swing-when-does-the-release-start/

Watch Steve Pratt''s golf swing between the 3:26 - 3:40 minute time point of his P4 => P5.5 downswing action.

Note how actively he adducts his right upper arm and note how he maintains a bent right elbow to ~P5.2 and note how he maintains clubhead lag in the same way as a traditional PGA tour golfer. He is not throwing-out his left wrist radial angle from the start of the downswing. SP is a Mike Austin ideologue, who talked about a right arm throw action, but if you look at MA's right arm throw action between the 12:15 - 12:35 minute of the MA-skeleton-video, you can clearly see that he adducted his right upper arm and maintained a bent right elbow to a point between P5 and P5.5 while having a lot of right lateral bend. MA's right arm throw action is equivalent to the way a skilled stone-skipping thrower, or skilled side-arm baseball pitcher, would execute a right arm throw action - where the right elbow remains bent between P4 => P5.2 and where the right elbow leads the hands. In other words, the right arm throw action is actually an active right arm adduction maneuver combined with a pitch elbow motion of the right elbow followed by an active release of PA#1.

SP talks about mid-hand torque and he refers to Dr. Kwon's graph, but that torque is not likely a measure of any torque specifically causing ulnar-deviation of the left wrist from the very start of the downswing. That mid-hand torque (derived from Dr. Kwon) seems to be similar to SMK's hand couple torque, which is another way of explaining the forces that cause the release of the club after P5.

Jeff.

[dubiousgolfer]

I agree with Dr Mann

That mid-hands torque on Dr Kwon's graph doesn't necessarily mean that there is muscular wrist uncocking action happening. Although, MA did say he had EMG data to prove otherwise , but I've never seen it made public.

DG

[dubiousgolfer]

Am I interpreting these 'Charles Howard III' graphs correctly?

Top Graph
Red line is the 'tangential' force at the mid-hand point within the hub path plane (measured in Newtons on y axis)
Green line is the 'normal' force at the mid-hand point within hub path plane (measures in Newtons on y axis)

Bottom Graph
Red line is torque via left hand about the mid-hand point - positive anti-clockwise rotational twisting force from face on view (measured in Newton Metres in y axis)
Blue line is torque via right hand about the mid-hand point - negative clockwise twisting force from face on view ( measured in Newton Metres in y axis)
Green Line is the total torque (sum of left and right hand torques face on measured n Newton Metres in y axis)

If yes, wondering why there is a negative torque via right hand about the mid-hand point all the way from P4 -P6 ?




DG

PS. Looking at his DTL/face-on driver swings on you tube - I think he has a right upper arm adduction and pitch elbow move (with some lateral flexion) and has a DH hand release action .

Could his right arm adduction move be causing a  'lag' torque ? We've seen DT mention this on his website (and discussed it before ) but I think this graph might be providing some proof .

[imperfectgolfer]

Apr 27, 2020 11:42:16 GMT -5 dubiousgolfer said:

Am I interpreting these 'Charles Howard III' graphs correctly?

Top Graph
Red line is the 'tangential' force at the mid-hand point within the hub path plane (measured in Newtons on y axis)
Green line is the 'normal' force at the mid-hand point within hub path plane (measures in Newtons on y axis)

Bottom Graph
Red line is torque via left hand about the mid-hand point - positive anti-clockwise rotational twisting force from face on view (measured in Newton Metres in y axis)
Blue line is torque via right hand about the mid-hand point - negative clockwise twisting force from face on view ( measured in Newton Metres in y axis)
Green Line is the total torque (sum of left and right hand torques face on measured n Newton Metres in y axis)

If yes, wondering why there is a negative torque via right hand about the mid-hand point all the way from P4 -P6 ?




DG

PS. Looking at his DTL/face-on driver swings on you tube - I think he has a right upper arm adduction and pitch elbow move (with some lateral flexion) and has a DH hand release action .

Could his right arm adduction move be causing a  'lag' torque ? We've seen DT mention this on his website (and discussed it before ) but I think this graph might be providing some proof .

I am not qualified to assess whether you have interpreted those graphs correctly.

I see nothing in the lower graph that states that the blue graph represents the right hand force/torque. I think that the red and blue graphs refer to the moment-of-force and the hand couple force.

I don't understand how the tangential force (seen in the top graph) can be near-zero between P4 and P5.

Why don't you contact Dr. Kwon and ask for an explanation of his graphs.

Jeff.

[dubiousgolfer]

Dr Mann

Yes , I've just sent him an email.

DG

[dubiousgolfer]

Dr Mann

Actually , its all explained in this link below

drkwongolf.info/technotes/mh_kinetics.pdf

You were correct about the bottom Red and Blue graphs . The red graph represents the mid-hands couple , while blue graph is the MOF (moment of force) caused by net linear force via the hands through the mid point of the hands . All very similar to SMK's in plane couple and moment of force graphs that we've seen in previous threads.

My previous post is irrelevant.

DG


PS. Dr Kwon did reply back and said the bottom graph was labelled incorrectly and should have said 'Mid-Hands Torque' . 

[dubiousgolfer]

Looking at that Dr Kwon .pdf (extract below), it seems that the 3D graphs are identical to Charles Howard III in that Steve Pratt video. The graphs still show a 'net linear force' applied though the mid-point of the hands that seem to be more across the grip shaft (rather than along it). An eccentric force that causes a negative 'MOF' on the club (ie. assists club lag) just like SMK's vimeo videos in previous threads. It also shows that there is a net positive couple being applied via the mid-point of the hands.

I cannot intuitively understand how that can happen from P4-P5.5 but obviously Steve Pratt is just using whatever data he is getting from Dr Kwon and making a judgement that the wrists are muscularly creating that positive torque as shown in the bottom graph below.

We've discussed this before but it still very debatable how in reality a golfer can apply a positive couple and a net force (across the shaft away from target ) from P4-P5.5.

Maybe SMK and Dr Kwon are both using the same standard equations (from previous golf research) in their 3D software models to work out the kinetic forces being applied on the golf club (because the results look similar).

-----------------------------------------------------
Figure 3 shows the on plane net MH force patterns of a PGA Tour caliber player during the downswing. Black arrows shown in the stick figure are the net MH force vectors 
(Eq. 12) at various downswing events. (Visit drkwongolf.info/biom/eventsphases.html for the definitions of the swing events used.)
The green and blue arrows are the tangential and normal axes of the moving MH reference frame. 
 
These two axes are defined on the swing plane. Using this reference frame it is possible to decompose the net MH force into components tangential (green line in the graph) and 
normal (blue line) to the hand path. It is evident from the force patterns that the net MH force stays outward with respect to the hand path until the position marked with ‘*’ 
(about 50 ms before the impact) and then turns inward and stays that way thereafter. The tangential component reaches its peak value slightly after event MD where club shaft becomes parallel to the ground. At impact (event BI), the normal force is substantially  larger than the tangential force.





DG

[imperfectgolfer]

DG,

Watch the following video between the 0:57 - 1:12 minute time point of the video where Greg McHatton performs a golf swing where the he only holds the golf club with the tips of the two fingers of each hand.





I have seen other GM swing videos (which I cannot presently locate) where Greg can hit the golf ball perfectly well using that technique where he barely holds onto the club handle with two fingers of the lead hand - as if he were performing a golf swing like an Iron Byron machine where the club handle is attached to the central arm only via a simple hinge joint - as seen in the following capture image.





I would like you to ask Dr. Kwon a question - if he did inverse dynamics calculations on an Iron Byron golf robot machine's golf swing action, and Greg McHatton's two-finger golf swing action, would he come to the same conclusion about the forces operating during the downswing action as he did in that 9-page pdf file. In particular, I would like to know how he would explain the release of PA#2 in the absence of a hand couple phenomenon?

Jeff.

[dubiousgolfer]

Dr Mann

Yes , there is no doubt that an active muscular uncocking of the wrists is not required for the iron Byron and GM's demonstration swing but if Dr Kwon (and SMK's) inverse dynamic modelling is correct, then Charles Howard III swing biomechanics must be different.

Here is a slow motion video in 2018 ( Dr Kwon wrote that .pdf in 2017) of his swing where it looks like his right upper arm is adducting but not externally rotating plus he seems to be a borderline 'Drive Holder'.



Could the fact that he using internal rotation of his right upper humerus while he adducts explain the 'across shaft' (away from target) linear force in Dr Kwon's graph (like a pull push type action)? That force is causing a MOF (ie. a torque) in the 'negative clockwise' direction from a face-on view while it seems he is also simultaneously generating some positive couple via his hands (but not necessarily via musculature action via his wrists) . Both torques offset against each other which is why there is no visible release of PA#2 until P5.5.

I cannot imagine him actively using his wrists so I can only assume that the 'positive anti-clockwise'  mid-hand couple via his wrists is a passive secondary effect caused by the release of PA#4.

Is that a possibility that Steve Pratt has not taken into consideration when trying to interpret the biomechanics to fit those graphs?

DG

When I say 'pull push' I mean that the right arm adduction (with internal rotation of humerus) is causing the bottom 3 fingers of his right hand to pull more in line with the clubshaft , while his thumb and trigger finger are pushing across the shaft.

[mb]

Apr 26, 2020 22:52:22 GMT -5 utahgolfer said:

Here is a video from Steve Pratt on Eric Cogorno's channel discussing a method to increase club head speed and driving distance.





The basic idea is a casting motion (left wrist ulnar deviation) from p4, directing the club head rearward and farther from the target, to p5.5, as fast as possible. Steve calls this "the throw out method" and claims that this is how tour players hit the ball so far. He states that the throw out move is just one component of the swing that is blended with body rotation, arm swing, and proper timing.

I believe Homer Kelley would call this a PA#2, PA#4, PA#3 sequence, or a throw away method.

I believe Greg Rose/TPI would say that this doesn't follow the kinematic sequence of tour players, where the club head does not accelerate significantly until after p5.5.

I believe Jeff Mann would say this method is nonsensical, and I look forward to his response to this thread.

I believe other forum members will agree that this method is problematic, and I look forward to any input.

I believe this method is similar to the Malaska move, but on a more acceptable club head path. It promotes a swing tip that amateurs would find easy to do, as the early release of PA#2 requires no swing skill, other than directing the club head backward and outward. I believe this method violates the principle of swinging from the inside out, or from proximal to distal. I believe it is the pelvis, torso, and arms that need to move sequentially fast from p4, not the club head. The club needs to move fast gradually and reach peak speed at impact. I believe only players with a very fast pivot could make the throw out method workable, as they could more easily sync up the body, arms, and club. But, it is certainly not recommended for any player. A player with a slow pivot could certainly not make this method work as the club head and arms would race ahead of the pivot, causing a loss of power and accuracy. It might feel more powerful during practice swings, but the physics of their ball flight would not lie during actual golf shots. Adding any extra force to promote an early release of PA#2 would make the impact zone very unstable with an early flip roll release. It would be impossible to retain forward shaft lean, a drive-hold release with the shaft not passing the left arm until after p7, or a stable and gradual rate of club face closure through the impact zone.

Its only utility might be to show players what not to do, although it may serve to motivate some players to move their pivot faster to keep up with the early casting club head. A player who could drive-hold using the throw out method would be impressive and doing this might serve as a possible exaggeration drill. But, it definitely is nonsensical, problematic, and counterproductive golf swing instruction.

UG

[mb]

Apr 27, 2020 0:35:39 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

To label this video nonsensical would not be right!

It is better to label it as being ridiculously nonsensical!!!

Jeff.

This is nonsensical for all the reasons provided, going back 30 years as I recall Ben Doyle taught throw out action was at release point. That’s many years ago. So I stopped Eric at impact on the video from behind and his pivot stalled out he appeared to stand up or extend and looked trapped. He seemly accomplished what was said instructed but I don’t get it.

The other issue was Mr. Pratt working off this flatter plane bothered me. Mike Austin was correct in many things highly coordinated both sides of his body - if he felt throwing it instead of dragging it with pivot then his pivot was dominating and he didn’t know it. That’s my take on this. Thanks