Maintaining posture during the downswing

[utahgolfer]

Easy. If a golfer extends his thoracic spine up 1 inch from his normal address position with the shoulders parallel to the ball target line, his shoulders will elevate 1 inch and be more horizontal or more level with the ground. His club will also be 1 inch above the ground and farther from his body. If this happens during the downswing, the same thing will occur. His shoulders would assume a more horizontal position, the club path would shallow (be more horizontal), and he would mishit the ball, all else being equal.

At p4, with the shoulders turned perpendicular to the ball-target line it appears more like a reverse pivot, with the shoulders not changing their pitch angle so much, but rather moving closer to the target. To do this excessively at p4 would certainly be a swing fault, but I don't think most golfers who early extend from the spine do so at p4. I think it is much more likely done between p5.5 to p6 as they anticipate extending the body after hitting the ball. Unfortunately, they get it wrong and instead extend too early before hitting the ball, and this causes the problems highlighted: a more horizontal shoulder turn (shallowing influence) and tumbling over the plane (steeping influence) to get back to net zero. But net zero is still a problem because the swing path is now moving too much left due to swinging OTT.

My guess is that the onset of right lateral bending and mid-downswing early extension happen simultaneously. The player thinks he is only performing a correct right lateral bend, but he is also early extending his spine at the same time. The fault is hidden because it happens so quickly and because it's important to extend the body after hitting the ball to move into a full follow-through. However, there is a problem, and the ball pulls left, which frustrates the player because everything feels right. Insidious is the word of choice: "proceeding in a gradual, subtle way, but with harmful effects."

I think players like Justin Thomas may elevate the swing center slightly around p6.5 when using a driver and get away with it as they seek extra distance. But any player who early extends the spine around p5.5 will pay the price. The consequence will be a compensation and usually it will be a tumble of the hands to offset the shallowing effect of the more horizontal turning shoulders. The ball will pull left but the player won't know why.

UG

[imperfectgolfer]

UG,

You wrote-: "At p4, with the shoulders turned perpendicular to the ball-target line it appears more like a reverse pivot, with the shoulders not changing their pitch angle so much, but rather moving closer to the target. To do this excessively at p4 would certainly be a swing fault, but I don't think most golfers who early extend from the spine do so at p4. I think it is much more likely done between p5.5 to p6 as they anticipate extending the body after hitting the ball. Unfortunately, they get it wrong and instead extend too early before hitting the ball, and this causes the problems highlighted: a more horizontal shoulder turn (shallowing influence) and tumbling over the plane (steeping influence) to get back to net zero."

I cannot understand why thoracic spine extension happening at P5.5 - P6 will cause an OTT move and an out-to-in clubhead path through impact. I can more easily picture it causing a "hanging-back" swing fault and an increased likelihood of a push-sliced shot.

Jeff.

[utahgolfer]

I'm maybe trying to create an explanation without enough data or information. It easy to see that early extension could lead to an in-to-out path and push-slice. The body is blocking the arm path and there isn't anywhere else for the arms to go but in to out. This is certainly a common explanation, and it makes sense. But, what about when the pelvis isn't blocking the path of the arms? Could this change the swing fault outcome?

On Tyler Ferrell's golf smart academy, he talks about how early extension can occur both earlier (p4.1) or later (p5.5) in the downswing. He mentions that some people who do it later in the downswing may do so to help shallow out an already steep club path. In this case, early extension (shallowing effect) happens later in the downswing and is a consequence of a steep OTT path. The body early extends to try and save a swing that is too steep coming into the ball. My idea is based on the same premise but opposite. In this case, the OTT path (steepening effect) happens later in the downswing and is a consequence of early extension. The hands and club tumble over the plane to try and save a swing that has become too shallow due to upper body early extension.

To me both ideas are logical to get to net zero and promote a proper delivery angle into the ball.

Maybe what would help me is to know what common swing faults would cause a player to tumble the hands and club over the plane in the mid-downswing.

I know it’s a complicated deal as the body moves from p1 to p4 with combined left-side bend and trunk extension...and from p4 to p7 with combined trunk flexion and right-side bend. However, through all of this, pros tend to minimize head movement and hit the ball with a slightly lower head position.

Here is a video that shows the pros head movement during a swing. Mute the sound and just watch the right graphic box. (Caveat: It would be better to look at the swing center since some head drop could be due to neck flexion.)

www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=athletic+motion+golf+steady+head#kpvalbx=_g4q6YZudLsO5tAakj5bwBg39

Thanks for the discussion.

UG

[imperfectgolfer]

UG,

You wrote-: "My idea is based on the same premise but opposite. In this case, the OTT path (steepening effect) happens later in the downswing and is a consequence of early extension. The hands and club tumble over the plane to try and save a swing that has become too shallow due to upper body early extension."

As I have repeatedly stated, I cannot understand your reasoning! You also previously inferred that the thoracic spine extending phenomenon would cause a tumble action, but now you are asserting that the tumble action is a saving mechanism because the upper body extending phenomenon causes too much shallowing of the clubshaft.

You also wrote-: "Maybe what would help me is to know what common swing faults would cause a player to tumble the hands and club over the plane in the mid-downswing."

I think that tumbling of the hands/club over-the-plane in the mid downswing could be due a number of biomechanical events eg. i) disordered kinematic sequence where the golfer activates the counterclockwise rotation of the upper torso that angles the spine and head targetwards (as seen in those Russell Heritage capture images that I posted in a previous post) while simultaneously having a static pelvis; ii) using a punch elbow motion of the trail arm, instead of a pitch elbow motion, when performing an active trail upper arm adduction maneuver; iii) starting the downswing with the correct kinematic sequence where the pelvis leads the upper torso between P4 => P5, but where the upper torso is actively rotating too aggressively between P5 => P6 and where the thoracic vertebrae are rotating too horizontally. I think that any thoracic spine extending from being in a slightly kyphotic thoracic spine alignment => being in a neutral thoracic spine alignment plays no role in this 3rd biomechanical phenomenon. In fact, it is more likely that the aggressive activation of the upper torso rotation in the mid-downswing between P5 => P6 may cause the degree of thoracic spine kyphosis to increase as the upper torso performs an overt "covering motion".

Jeff.

[dubiousgolfer]

I think I understand what UG is inferring .

That from P5.5 -P6 , if the thoracic spine extends:

1.Its inclination with the ground from a DTL view will steepen
2.The shoulder sockets 'might' tend to rotate more in a plane perpendicular to that inclined thoracic spine (ie. a flatter plane). This will cause the club to deviate 'off plane' above the 'functional plane' and likely miss the ball.
3.To avoid point 2 , the golfer might subconsciously try and manipulate the club back 'on plane' (ie. point the butt end on the 'swing plane line' ) that may steepen the club and cause a toppling over movement.

Personally , I don't think its likely to happen and I agree with Dr Mann that its more likely that there is an increase in spine kyphosis.

Also , I looked at this image below and although the thoracic spine is becoming more 'extended' , there doesn't seem to be increase in the height of the head above the ground (actually it looks less).

Seems to a mix of less lordosis and kyphosis where the decrease in lordosis is more than enough to angulate the whole spine on a less steep incline.



DG

[utahgolfer]

That makes sense. Any idea why the pro in Milo’s video tumbles and pulls it left?

Thanks, UG

PS: I said earlier: On Tyler Ferrell's golf smart academy, he talks about how early extension can occur both earlier (p4.1) or later (p5.5) in the downswing. He mentions that some people who do it later in the downswing may do so to help shallow out an already steep club path. In this case, early extension (shallowing effect) happens later in the downswing and is a consequence of a steep OTT path. The body early extends to try and save a swing that is too steep coming into the ball.

Do you agree with Tyler, that a player might early extend later in the downswing to try and shallow a steep OTT path?

[imperfectgolfer]

Dec 16, 2021 11:58:59 GMT -5 utahgolfer said:

That makes sense. Any idea why the pro in Milo’s video tumbles and pulls it left?

Thanks, UG

PS: I said earlier: On Tyler Ferrell's golf smart academy, he talks about how early extension can occur both earlier (p4.1) or later (p5.5) in the downswing. He mentions that some people who do it later in the downswing may do so to help shallow out an already steep club path. In this case, early extension (shallowing effect) happens later in the downswing and is a consequence of a steep OTT path. The body early extends to try and save a swing that is too steep coming into the ball.

Do you agree with Tyler, that a player might early extend later in the downswing to try and shallow a steep OTT path?

UG - I didn't previously watch that Milo Lines video, but now that I have watched it I can easily see why that pro golfer hits the ball left. There are a multiplicity of factors that work in concert to cause his problem.

Here is a capture image of his simulated downswing action at P5.5.

First of all, his stance is too open in this swing action and that can predispose to an out-to-in clubhead path.

Most importantly, his trail shoulder is far too close to the ball-target line at P5.5 and that is because his shoulders are too open at P5.5. That also causes his trail elbow to be positioned far too much outwards away from his trail hip area. The trail elbow should be alongside, or just in front of, the trail shirt seam at P5.5 so that it can closely bypass the trail hip area as he transitions from the mid-downswing => late downswing. Finally, he has an exaggerated CP-arm release action where his hands go far too much inwards through impact and it is therefore not surprising that his clubhead path is excessively out-to-in between P6 => P7.

To solve his problem, he should make a number of swing changes.

First of all, he must make his trail arm action far less actively assertive between P4 => P6, and he should avoid actively driving his trail elbow so far outwards in the direction of the ball-target line. He should more actively use his left-sided pivot action to pull-release his lead arm so that it leads the club along an in-to-out clubhead path between P4 => P6.5, and he should allow the trail side of his body to more passively acquire right lateral bend so that his shoulder turn angle is more vertical, and less horizontal, as he transitions from the mid-downswing to his late downswing. His pelvis and mid-torso should be more open at P5.5 so that it leads the upper torso with more torso-pelvic separation - as demonstrated in those Dustin Johnson's capture images where I color-highlighted his pelvis/mid-torso in yellow to show that it must be well ahead of the upper torso in terms of rotation. 

Here are DTL capture images of Dustin Johnson's downswing action.

Image 2 shows DJ at P5.5. Note that his pelvis more open than his upper torso . Note that his trail elbow is much closer to his trail hip area.

Note that he has more right lateral bend that allows his shoulders to rotate in a more ferris-wheel, rather than a more merry-go-round, manner between P5.5 (image 2) => P7 (image 5). Note that the his trail forearm is moving in a slightly in-to-out direction between P5.5 => P7 and that his clubhead path is likewise slightly in-to-out.

I disagree with Milo's opinion that he should try to get his upper torso more open at impact because if he actively drives the trail side of his upper body too assertively, it will produce a "covering motion" of his upper torso that can predispose to swinging too much out-to-in through impact. By contrast, he should let his lead arm be pulling more assertively in a less CP-arm release manner through impact, and it should be drive-holding in a slightly in-to-out direction between P6 => P7.4. He should not be driving the trail side of his body and his trail arm too actively, and it should only support the motion of his intact LFFW so that his clubhead path can be in-to-square-to-in through impact, and not out-to-in.  

Which Tyler Ferrell video are you referring to so that I can watch it?

Jeff.

[utahgolfer]

Excellent assessment. This makes sense.

The Ferrell video is: Early Extension - Timing | Late Or Early?

[dubiousgolfer]

Dr Mann

When you say " His pelvis and mid-torso should be more open at P5.5 so that it leads the upper torso with more torso-pelvic separation" do you mean this golfer must feel more x-factor stretch from P4-P5.5 ?

Further , isn't his pelvic rotation sub-optimal because his right hip has left the tush line by P5 with his right heel off the ground, as if he has immediately pushed off right foot just before P4 ?

DG

[imperfectgolfer]

Dec 16, 2021 19:35:39 GMT -5 dubiousgolfer said:

Dr Mann

When you say " His pelvis and mid-torso should be more open at P5.5 so that it leads the upper torso with more torso-pelvic separation" do you mean this golfer must feel more x-factor stretch from P4-P5.5 ?

Further , isn't his pelvic rotation sub-optimal because his right hip has left the tush line by P5 with his right heel off the ground, as if he has immediately pushed off right foot just before P4 ?

DG

Regarding your bold-highlighted question, I am not a "believer" in the value of creating more X-factor stretch. However, I think that it is important to have the pelvis leading the upper torso for two reasons. First of all, if you can get to P5.5 with an open pelvis alignment, but with the upper torso still closed then it is biomechanically easier to get the right elbow in its pitch location alongside the trail shirt seam or just in front of the trail hip area at P5.5. If the upper torso has rotated too much by P5.5 so that the trail shoulder is far closer to the ball-target line by P5.5, then it predisposes to having the trail elbow too close to the ball-target line, which can lead to a tumble action and out-to-in clubhead path in the late downswing. Secondly, if the pelvis is more open than the upper torso at P5.5, it is biomechanically easier to acquire right lateral bend and a more vertical (steeper) shoulder turn angle between P5.5 => P7. 

I did not evaluate his pelvic motion, which could be sub-optimal.

Jeff.

[imperfectgolfer]

UG,

Here is the Tyler Ferrell video.





You stated/asked-: "I said earlier: On Tyler Ferrell's golf smart academy, he talks about how early extension can occur both earlier (p4.1) or later (p5.5) in the downswing. He mentions that some people who do it later in the downswing may do so to help shallow out an already steep club path. In this case, early extension (shallowing effect) happens later in the downswing and is a consequence of a steep OTT path. The body early extends to try and save a swing that is too steep coming into the ball.

Do you agree with Tyler, that a player might early extend later in the downswing to try and shallow a steep OTT path?"

I do not believe that amateur golfers deliberately early extend in the later downswing in order to shallow out an overly steep OTT path.

I think that early extension is a swing fault and it can happen very early in the downswing if the pelvis is thrust assertively towards the ball-target line in a "goat humping" manner and it can happen later if the pelvic thrust action happens with less force/speed. Either way, early extension prevents the golfer from rotating his pelvis /upper torso in a rotary manner, and he is forced to fling his arms down in front of his torso to even make contact with the ball. I don't think that amateur golfers are even aware of their clubface possibly being too open at P6, and they do not early extend to compensate for an open clubface. I also do not believe that they are even mentally aware that their clubhead path is too steep if they have a propensity to come OTT, and I do not believe that they then deliberately decide to early extend to shallow-out the club path. I think that early extension is simply a swing fault in amateur golfers who do not know how to perform an optimal rotary pelvic motion while maintaining a constant spinal bend inclination angle during their downswing action.

Jeff.

[janik]

Dec 17, 2021 0:11:01 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

I do not believe that amateur golfers deliberately early extend in the later downswing in order to shallow out an overly steep OTT path.

I think that early extension is a swing fault and it can happen very early in the downswing if the pelvis is thrust assertively towards the ball-target line in a "goat humping" manner and it can happen later if the pelvic thrust action happens with less force/speed. Either way, early extension prevents the golfer from rotating his pelvis /upper torso in a rotary manner, and he is forced to fling his arms down in front of his torso to even make contact with the ball. I don't think that amateur golfers are even aware of their clubface possibly being too open at P6, and they do not early extend to compensate for an open clubface. I also do not believe that they are even mentally aware that their clubhead path is too steep if they have a propensity to come OTT, and I do not believe that they then deliberately decide to early extend to shallow-out the club path. I think that early extension is simply a swing fault in amateur golfers who do not know how to perform an optimal rotary pelvic motion while maintaining a constant spinal bend inclination angle during their downswing action.

Jeff.

Hi Dr. Mann,

This is a really interesting viewpoint, as I have always believed that my very late early extension is due to my subconscious finding a way to hit the ball out of the sweetspot rather than a shank, as I have an OTT from the outside swing path. By early extending, my shoulders move up and back from the ball thereby bringing the clubhead closer to the inside of the ball-target line. I am fairly sure (or at least I was fairly sure) that if I forced myself to maintain my posture through the hitting zone, that I would definitely shank or even miss the ball.

While I agree I am not specifically aware of the out-in swing path while swinging down, it seems logical to state that one's subconscious hand-eye coordination will find a way of compensating just to hit the ball, and that body parts will react accordingly.

I would be interested in hearing your explanation of how one can hit the ball from an outside-in path without early extending. The only alternative I can think of is to chicken wing both arms inwards toward the torso. That would be very nonathletic in terms of a swinging action and would slow the club speed down I would imagine.

Cheers
Janik

[dubiousgolfer]

I'm not sure a golfer will have any time to 'save' his golf strike during the downswing (even subconsciously) because it only takes 0.25 secs. I remember an experiment mentioned in Cochran and Stobbs ' Search For A Perfect Swing' book where they switched the lights off during golfers downswings, but it didn't effect their ball striking. But it did effect their swings when they switched the lights off during the backswing. So it could be that golfers have ingrained a swing fault rather than it being some subconscious manipulative correction during the downswing.

Here is Monte Scheinblum's explanation for early extension .




DG

[imperfectgolfer]

DG/Janik,

I vehemently reject Monte Scheinblum's reasoning.

First of all, he states that if a golfer bends over too much at the level of the hip joints, that he will hit the ball "fat" if he didn't stand-up in the later downswing. Note that when MS "stand-up" he gets the clubshaft more inline with his lead arm at impact thereby creating a very small accumulator #3 angle, and he infers that this is a necessary compensatory move. However, that's not true because if one has the flexibility to rotate the pelvis/upper torso throughout the downswing while remaining bent-over a lot, then one can come into impact with a large accumulator #3 angle and hit the ball solidly.

Here are capture images of Keegan Bradley's downswing action.

KB has a very bent-over posture throughout his golf swing action, and he maintains his spinal bend inclination angle unchanged throughout his entire downswing.

Note that he comes into impact with a near-vertical lead arm and a large accumulator #3 angle and he he has zero likelihood of hitting the ball "fat".

Now, if an amateur golfer adopts a very bent-over posture (like KB), but does not have the flexibility/athleticism to maintain that same degree of bent-over posture throughout the entire downswing, then he should adopt a more upright posture at address and still perform a rotary pivot motion. I don't think that it is a better choice to start with a bent-over posture at address and then early extend so that one can at least make contact with the ball.

MS's 2nd argument is equally nonsensical. He states that if a golfer wants to hit up on the ball with a driver that he has to excessively drop his right shoulder groundwards and that it will result in a "fat shot". That's not true! Pro golfers who want to hit up on the ball with their driver, and have a higher launch angle, must get their lead shoulder higher in their later downswing. However, that does not mean that they have to lower their trail shoulder excessively.

Justin Thomas is an example of a golfer who hits up on the ball with his driver.

Image 1 is at P6 and image 3 is at impact. Note how much JT elevates his lead shoulder between P6 => P7 and that allows his hand arc path to move slightly upwards as he approaches impact, and that is conducive to hitting up on the ball with his driver. Note that his trail shoulder does simultaneously move grounwards between P6 => P7, but he has zero likelihood of it causing a "fat" shot because he is not dipping his trail shoulder down excessively/unnaturally.  

MS's 3rd argument is that if a golfer comes OTT with a steep clubshaft attack angle and an out-to-in clubhead path in the earlier downswing, that he must early extend in order to make contact with the ball. That may be true if he decides not to chicken-wing his two arms as an alternative compensatory move, but the optimum solution is to fix the OTT move so that the golfer does not have to perform an early extending maneuver as a compensatory move.

I very much favor a rotary pivot motion, and an early extending maneuver is very incompatible with a rotary pivot motion of the pelvis and upper torso.

Jeff.

[utahgolfer]

I agree, MS needs some Jeff Mann feedback.

In any event, this discussion thread has been good. Thanks for the back and forth. I definitely understand things better now. I'm still not sure how the body automatically sorts out steeps and shallows, to save shots, but I can only conclude that it's complicated.

Jeff, could we sum up by saying that the relative position of the trail hip and shoulder, as they rotate, should never move closer to the target line from p4 to p7 than their original address positions? Which means for best results, no trail hip or shoulder spin out is allowed from p4 to p7...

UG