Maintaining posture during the downswing

[utahgolfer]

I’m curious about the influence of maintaining one’s posture during the downswing, specifically maintaining or changing the thoracic spine and how this influences the swing path.

Early thoracic spine extension

With all else being the same, an early extension of the t-spine before impact (early head or upper torso lift) will cause the shoulders or upper torso to rotate CCW on more of a horizontal plane, correct?

If the arms follow this horizontal plane shift, without adjustment, the player would swing over the ball and miss it, or top the ball, correct?

However, as a compensation to not miss the ball, the player would instead, at some point, steepen the swing by moving his arms more downward as the upper torso rotates CCW creating a tumble or over plane (OTT) swing path correct?

But, the amount and timing of right lateral bend could also moderate the influence of this swing error, correct?

For example, as the t-spine early extends, the shoulders turn more horizontal, and the hand path needs some modification, adding in some right lateral bend to the mix and swinging the hands more outward could promote a more in-to-out swing path, correct?

So, with all else the same, the player who early extends the t-spine before impact would usually fight a pull and sometimes a push depending on the amount and timing of his right lateral bend and the swing direction of the arms, correct?

Also, this player could sometimes hit the ball straight when the early t-spine extension, the early horizontal shoulder turn, and the perfectly gauged right lateral bend and arm swing direction are all blended with perfect timing, correct?

What about the opposite problem?

Increased thoracic spine flexion

All else being the same, an increase in t-spine flexion before impact (head or upper torso drop) will cause the shoulders or upper torso to rotate CCW on more of a vertical plane, correct?

If the arms follow this vertical plane shift, without adjustment, the player would hit steeply down on the ball and when using an iron take a deep divot, correct?

With all else being the same, this player would also tend to swing OTT due to his shoulders or upper torso rotating CCW, correct?

However, as a compensation to shallow the swing, the player could instead, at some point, swing his arms more outward and add in some right lateral bend as the shoulders rotate more vertically. This would help to shallow the swing path to possibly minimize the OTT tendency, correct?

So, with all else the same, the player who has an increase in t-spine flexion before impact (head or upper torso drop) would usually fight a pull and sometimes a push depending on the timing of his right lateral bend and swing direction of the arms, correct?

Also, this player could sometimes hit the ball straight when the increase in t-spine flexion, the increase in vertical shoulder turn, the right lateral bend, and direction of the arm swing are all blended with perfect timing, correct?

In sum, it's better to keep the head and upper torso level during the downswing with no extending or flexing of the thoracic spine before impact, correct?!

Any input is appreciated.

UG

[imperfectgolfer]

I cannot understand the concept of early thoracic spine extension happening near impact due to "something" happening at the level of the thoracic spine.

Do you have video or capture images showing this phenomenon?

Jeff.

[utahgolfer]

Early thoracic extension can happen anytime after p4 to anytime before p7. It can and should happen sometime after p7. The problem is when it happens early. If this occurs, then just like early pelvic or hip joint extension, there will be a swing compensation to make up for it.

In the attached video Milo is trying to help this pro stop tumbling and stop hitting pulls to the left. Milo doesn't really identify a swing fault (this pro has a great looking swing) and he mostly just encourages the pro to stop doing it using feel.

My guess is this pro has a "hidden" early thoracic extension, and when this happens he immediately tumbles his club shaft to steepen the path so he doesn't mishit the ball. It's just a guess, since we don't have a measurement sensor at T1 and don't know if he is staying level or early extends.

But we can hypothesize and consider possible compensations.

If he does indeed early extend, even a quarter-inch, this would wreck havoc on his swing path. A steepening adjustment would need to be made, or the club would be too elevated coming into the ball.

To me this pro is trying to swing more in to out to fix his problem, but this doesn't work for him. Combining two shallowing adjustments (more horizontal shoulder turn and an in-to-out path) is usually counterproductive. He always comes back to the tumble for some reason. I know this is complicated with many moving parts, but I think he has slight early thoracic extension. This is why nothing is working for him. I think if he were to stand up even faster and earlier, he would need to swing OTT even more to hit the ball solidly. I think if he were to maintain his posture with no early extension, he would not need to tumble his club path over the top. He just needs to be told to keep his head down (level) and maintain his posture well past impact.

I doubt his possible early extension is coming from early extension of his pelvis and hip joints, like we see in many amateur golfers. But anyone who early extends the pelvis will also see an elevation at T1 (there is plenty of video evidence of this). But it is possible to keep the pelvis in posture and only early extend at the thoracic level. The thoracic spine can easily straighten slightly during the downswing with no change in hip joint flexion or extension. And, if this happens, my guess is that it can cause a tumble compensation, steepen the swing path into the ball, and result in a pulled shot to the left.

UG

 

[dubiousgolfer]

Hi UG

I tried slowing down the video but I did notice some spinning of his right hip very early in the downswing by P5. His right heel is already off the ground by a few inches. Maybe he isn't pressure loading his right leg/hip enough in his backswing (to then use the contraction of his pelvic girdle muscles in the hip squaring phase of his downswing) but just pushing off it just before he reaches P4. Could this be the root cause of any out-in clubhead path in the late downswing?

DG

[imperfectgolfer]

UG,

I don't know what you mean by "early extension of the thoracic spine".

Jeff.

[dubiousgolfer]

UG

Is this thoracic extension?



DG

[imperfectgolfer]

Dec 13, 2021 6:02:54 GMT -5 dubiousgolfer said:

UG

Is this thoracic extension?



DG

Yes - that is correct.

However, I am not aware that pro golfers significantly change their degree of thoracic spine extension during the downswing.

Here is Adam Scott's downswing.

I do not see any change in his degree of thoracic extension relative to his lumbar spine.

Here is an amateur golfer goat-humping (= early extension).

He is early extending due to less hip joint flexion at the level of the hip joints, but his thoracic spine is not extending relative to his lumbar spine.

I have not seen early extending due to thoracic spine extension relative to the lumbar spine where the lumbar spine remains at the same spinal bend inclination angle relative to the ground.

Jeff.

[utahgolfer]

Hi friends, yes that illustrates thoracic flexion and extension. At address, a player assumes some degree of thoracic flexion, which represents a neutral thoracic spine. At p9, the player may maintain this same neutral thoracic flexion or extend up a bit more (so there is less thoracic flexion). If any thoracic extension is done between p4 and p7, it would be considered premature or early.

The early raising of T1 between p4 and p7 could occur from four general locations: via 1) knee extension; 2) hip joint/pelvis/lumbar spine extension; 3) extension at the TL junction; and 4) extension of the thoracic spine (T1 to T12).

Most instructors only focus on #2, the humping of the pelvis. But, the other three sources of early extension should also be assessed and corrected as needed.

With no cervical spine motion (flexion or extension), monitoring the level of the head is a nice source of feedback. In this case, keeping the head steady (no up or down motion) until after p7 would a helpful instructional tip.

Of course, this insight is from personal observation while trying to understand why I sometimes pull the ball. We're in our snowy off-season and I only have access to hitting balls indoors into a net, but I think I've identified the reason: early extension above my lumbar spine. It may be early extension through the TL junction, along the thoracic spine, or both.

In all of my practice shots, when I keep my head steady, it feels much different with less hanging back, better ball contact, and the sense that I have been prematurely extending my upper body for several years as I compare swings with the my head held steady.

Anyway, I wanted to present my theory to this forum to see if it makes sense from a swing compensation standpoint.

From what I understand, any early extension would create a more horizontal shoulder rotation which shallows the swing path. Without a compensatory swing motion, the club head would come into the ball too high and cause a mishit. To compensate the player must somehow steepen the hand arc path. This could be done between p4 to p7 by tumbling the hands over the plane. This would improve ball contact but lead to an OTT pull to the left. In addition, the player would be confused if his swing looked good (as presented in Milo's video) but he kept pulling it left. He might try to swing more in to out, but this wouldn't work as I mentioned earlier. He then might try to force his swing in to out and push his shot far to the right. Then, he'd go back to his normal (flawed) swing and start tumbling his hand arc path again. But he would never fix the pulls to the left until he stops early extending between p4 and p7.

Thoughts?

UG

[imperfectgolfer]

UG,

You wrote-: "The early raising of T1 between p4 and p7 could occur from four general locations: via 1) knee extension; 2) hip joint/pelvis/lumbar spine extension; 3) extension at the TL junction; and 4) extension of the thoracic spine (T1 to T12)."

I don't think that I have ever seen early raising of T1 (and head) that is biomechanically due to extension of the T-spine.

I do agree, as a general principle, that keeping the spinal bend inclination angle unchanged during the downswing is very advantageous.

Jeff.

[utahgolfer]

Jeff,

I think it needs to be measured with a sensor positioned at T1 and T12. I think it would also be helpful to put sensor at L1 and T12 and see if there is any motion at the TL junction.

Of course, we would never see thoracic extension beyond vertical, only a loss of neutral thoracic flexion in the direction of extension.

I believe a loss of thoracic or TL junction flexion is probably more common as the body also begins to right lateral bend, and as the player anticipates extending the body after p7 but does it early.

I think it would be interesting to correlate early upper body extension to swing path, and determine if this leads to OTT swing issues. My hypothesis: Yes it would!

UG

[imperfectgolfer]

Dec 13, 2021 14:00:17 GMT -5 utahgolfer said:

Jeff,

I think it needs to be measured with a sensor positioned at T1 and T12. I think it would also be helpful to put sensor at L1 and T12 and see if there is any motion at the TL junction.

Of course, we would never see thoracic extension beyond vertical, only a loss of neutral thoracic flexion in the direction of extension.

I believe a loss of thoracic or TL junction flexion is probably more common as the body also begins to right lateral bend, and as the player anticipates extending the body after p7 but does it early.

I think it would be interesting to correlate early upper body extension to swing path, and determine if this leads to OTT swing issues. My hypothesis: Yes it would!

UG

I think that an extending phenomenon of the thoracic spine happens when a golfer early extends and lifts the head up during the downswing. My brother (Barry) often manifests that phenomenon when he "stands-up" during the downswing. However, most of the loss of the spinal inclination bend angle is due to the entire spine (lumbar + thoracic) becoming more vertical (upright) and the small degree of going from thoracic spine kyphosis to thoracic spine neutrality is a very minor component of the "standing up" swing fault.

Jeff.

[utahgolfer]

I agree. However, you would need to measure it to know for each golfer. I think most golfers do it from the hip joint or pelvis which looks more like a whole-body stand up. However, my guess is that better golfers may do it in a more insidious way which may involve the TL junction and thoracic spine. Like any early extension this would lead to an OTT swing path, all being the same. Which means any player who is pulling it left may need to work on keeping the swing center steady with no early extension from any source, it seems to me.

UG

[imperfectgolfer]

Dec 13, 2021 19:05:58 GMT -5 utahgolfer said:

I agree. However, you would need to measure it to know for each golfer. I think most golfers do it from the hip joint or pelvis which looks more like a whole-body stand up. However, my guess is that better golfers may do it in a more insidious way which may involve the TL junction and thoracic spine. Like any early extension this would lead to an OTT swing path, all being the same. Which means any player who is pulling it left may need to work on keeping the swing center steady with no early extension from any source, it seems to me.

UG

I disagree with your bold-highlighted statement.

I think that an OTT move usually happens early in the downswing between P4 => P5 and during that time period the upper torso is still rotated clockwise so that the shoulders are roughly oriented in a plane that is perpendicular to the ball-target line. That means that any extending motion of the T-spine (converting a small degree of kyphosis to a lesser degree of kyphosis) is happening in a plane that is more perpendicular to the ball-target line, and I cannot see how that would predispose to an OTT move.

Here are capture images of Russell Heritage simulating an OTT move.

Note that the upper torso motion that causes an OTT move results in the entire spine being angled towards the target in such a manner that the head moves closer to the target. There is no apparent change in his degree of thoracic spine kyphosis during this OTT move. If his thoracic spine in image 2 became less kyphotic and more extended, it would more likely keep his trail shoulder further back and lessen (rather than increase) the amount that the trail shoulder moves outwards in an OTT manner between image 2 => image 3. 

You wrote-: "Which means any player who is pulling it left may need to work on keeping the swing center steady with no early extension from any source, it seems to me."

I agree that a golfer may need to work on keeping the upper swing center (head) steady and avoid an OTT move that can lead to an out-to-in clubhead path. However, the best way to accomplish that goal of maintaining a steady head while avoiding an OTT move is to move the lower-mid torso correctly.

Here are capture images of Dustin Johnson's downswing action.

He is primarily rotating his pelvis and mid-torso (yellow-colored zone) counterclockwise while keeping his upper torso more quiescent. That allows him to naturally keep his spine tilted to the right away from the target while simultaneously maintaining a steady head; and it also allows him to get his trail shoulder to move more steeply downplane as he acquires an increasing degree of right lateral bend between image 3 => image 5.

Jeff.

[utahgolfer]

Jeff, that's true. A golfer who early extends doesn't always swing OTT. It depends on the quality of his swing and how well he can compensate for the swing error.

However, after early extending, the player must compensate in some way if he wishes to make good contact with the ball. He has elevated his swing center compared with his address position, and somehow must make up for that error. He might do one or more possible compensations, but somehow, he must negate his initial swing fault to make decent contact with the ball.

Moving the head forward (targetward) usually causes an OTT swing path with or without early extension. I think the best way to understand this is using Jim Hardy's steepening and shallowing concepts, knowing that all steepening inputs and shallowing inputs must be properly balanced to swing the club head into the ball at a proper delivery angle.

Moving the head targetward or downward excessively from p4 to p5 steepens the swing. Turning the shoulders (upper torso) CCW from p4 to p7 also steepens the swing. Double trouble. The player who moves his head targetward or downward excessively from p4 to p5 will swing OTT due to the sheer swing path steepness he has created. His best option to save the shot is to immediately stop turning his upper body CCW (shallowing effect) and try to quickly swing the arms more down the line or in to out, to shallow his swing path. Clearly moving the head targetward or downward excessively between p4 and p5 is not a good idea.

Again, moving the head targetward excessively from p4 to p5 steepens the swing. Early extending at the same time shallows the swing. The two opposing faults could offset one another to some degree and make it possible to salvage the shot. However, since the shoulders are also usually turning CCW (steepening influence), the player most likely will swing OTT most of the time. Combining excessive targetward head motion with early extension is not a good idea.

However, a person can early extend without moving the head targetward. And this can happen any time from p4 to p7.

You wrote: "If his thoracic spine in image 2 became less kyphotic and more extended, it would more likely keep his trail shoulder further back and lessen (rather than increase) the amount that the trail shoulder moves outwards in an OTT manner between image 2 => image 3."

This may be true, but the problem is the club head must hit the ball. Any type of early extension causes the shoulders to turn more horizontal, which creates a shallowing effect that must be compensated for to make up for the initial fault. If the swing doesn't steepen somehow, the club head will either miss the ball or top it. There are several ways to steepen the swing; the problem is lack of time. Probably the only realistic way to avoid a mishit is to swing OTT or tumble over the plane to steepen the swing path. One swing fault promotes the next swing fault. This is the only way to salvage decent ball contact, even though the shot will either pull left with a club face squared to the path, or slice to the right with a club face open the path.

I think another unwise compensatory strategy for the player who early extends is to add in more right lateral bend. But this is double trouble again. Combining two shallowing effects usually leads to chaos. The CCW turning upper body helps to steepen things, but probably not enough. Most likely the player will be obligated to tumble across the plane at some point to steepen the swing and salvage ball contact.

You wrote: “I agree that a golfer may need to work on keeping the upper swing center (head) steady and avoid an OTT move that can lead to an out-to-in clubhead path. However, the best way to accomplish that goal of maintaining a steady head while avoiding an OTT move is to move the lower-mid torso correctly.”

This is the common antidote. However, a perfect pelvic-lumbar rotation will not help if the player unknowingly early extends from the TL junction or thoracic spine. Once the shoulders move to a more horizontal plane, the player’s fate is sealed. He must compensate to salvage any decent ball contact. Again, any time the shoulders begin turning on a more horizontal plane it acts as a shallowing effect. When this happens, the only realistic way to counter this shallowing effect is to tumble over the plane to quickly steepen the swing path. There isn’t enough time to do much of anything else.

Instructors don’t say enough about the sources of early extension. They say it’s myth to keep the head down during the swing. However, this is only a myth after ball contact. Before ball contact the head should be kept down or steady with no excessive upward movement from p4 to p7. Some downward movement is okay between p4 and p5 (steepening effect) since some players like to swing more in to out and shallow the club shaft between p4 and p5. But it all must promote a proper mix or net effect to ensure optimal ball contact. It’s so important not to lift the head or body from p4 to p7. Keeping the head down or steady during this time is far from a myth. It is a fundamental, except maybe with the driver (see below).

Additionally, instructors usually talk about early extension from only one source: pelvic humping. This is important to discuss and is a common problem, but there are other sources of early extension: the knees, TL junction, and thoracic spine. Focusing on proper pelvic rotation is important but it is only part of a successful swing. Early extension can still occur with perfect pelvic rotation/motion.

Another instructional concern is promoting this idea of vertical power. Does this mean a player should jump up from p4 to p7 and elevate his body during the downswing as much as possible? I don’t think so. After p6 a player might get away with some early extension when using a driver, but not with other clubs from the turf. It would be better to keep the swing center level coming into impact. A player can press down into the ground to energize the body, but not to elevate the swing center excessively or to jump off the ground before impact. Any foot elevation would need to be at impact or just after, otherwise the swing center would move up too much to make consistent ball contact.

Both Jason Zuback and Justin Thomas generate significant vertical power, but both keep their swing centers stable enough to make good ball contact. And, they definitely would need to generate less vertical power and swing center motion with any other club.

Cheers!

UG

[imperfectgolfer]

UG,

I cannot understand your reasoning.

In particular, I cannot understand this statement-: "Any type of early extension causes the shoulders to turn more horizontal, which creates a shallowing effect that must be compensated for to make up for the initial fault."

You are implying that if a golfer extends his thoracic spine between P4 => P5 by decreasing his degree of thoracic spine kyphosis that it will cause the shoulders to turn more horizontally. I don't understand that postulated causal connection.

Here are are rear-view capture images of Rory McIlroy's early downswing between P4 => P5.

Note that Rory's mid-upper thoracic spine is slightly (naturally) kyphotic by roughly the same amount between P4 (image 1) => P5 (image 4).

If he extended his mid-upper thoracic spine by a few inches to that it appeared more neutral (and less kyphotic) between P4 => P5, without changing his lumbar spine angle, how would it cause his shoulder turn angle to become more horizontal and cause clubshaft shallowing?

Jeff.