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Post by mngolfer on Sept 3, 2022 7:14:14 GMT -5
[Dr. Mann - First, I wanted to thank you so much for an incredible website on Perfectingolfswingreview.net. I have recently returned to golf after a 10 year hiatus and I have found it invaluable. I have received professional instruction which I am now convinced is just plain wrong and I have found your website to be a great resource for objective, truth-based discussion of proper swing mechanics.]
The question I have is this:
I use Trackman quite a bit and am finding no real problem manipulating my path; my issue has been squaring the clubface, particularly while trying to obtain an inside-to-out path. My typical Trackman numbers are around 1-3 degrees inside path and 1-3 open clubface. This imparts a ball flight that fades about 10-30 yards to the right of my target. I would prefer to have a dominant fade but am trying to achieve a more square clubface to reduce this degree of curve.
I have tried adopting a stronger grip and can verify that at p4, P7, and P8.5 that I have a closed clubface.
I read your "Hand Release Actions Through the Impact Zone" and had an aha! moment: you explain pretty clearly that pro golfer rotate their forearms between P6-P7 in order to square the clubface (I also noticed this is covered in Topic 4 of your downswing section). This appears to be what 3d shows as well. I also noticed it clearly in some videos. It's pretty clear to me that pro golfers all do this.
I then took some shots on trackman, making a conscious effort to return to my neutral flat wrist position at impact by actively rotating my forearms between p6 and p7. It was a new move for me, but it worked beautifully: my clubface was almost completely centered around -1 to +1 degrees. This after trying approximately one billion different iterations to get a closed clubface.
I can't remember where, but I remember reading somewhere you implying that this forearm rotation between P6 and P7 is not conscious, but is passive. I am not doing this passively; could you please explain what are the biomechanical movements in the swing that make this p6-p7 forearm closing pattern passive?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 3, 2022 9:54:10 GMT -5
mngolfer, You wrote-: "I then took some shots on trackman, making a conscious effort to return to my neutral flat wrist position at impact by actively rotating my forearms between p6 and p7. It was a new move for me, but it worked beautifully: my clubface was almost completely centered around -1 to +1 degrees. This after trying approximately one billion different iterations to get a closed clubface."
Your bold-highlighted claim is that you are consciously making an active effort to rotate the lead forearm during the later downswing in order to square the clubface by impact. I personally don't know how one can consistently time the release of PA#3 starting at P6 (presuming a weak or neutral lead hand grip) using an active lead forearm supinatory motion because the club must first release a lot in the plane of lead wrist uncocking (representing the release of PA#2) before the release of PA#3 begins in earnest. However, if the "feel" of a more active PA#3 release works well for you, then there is no reason to use a more passive PA#3 release action.
Another factor to consider is that one should not necessarily return to the same neutral flat lead wrist position at impact that existed at address.
Here is Henrik Stenson's late downswing action.
Note that at impact (image 4) the back of his FLW is not facing the target because he still has a small degree of lead forearm pronation that is needed to create a condition of forward shaft lean. If he came into impact with less forward shaft lean, then it is more likely that the back of his lead wrist would face the target at impact. So, the back of the lead wrist may face the target at impact with a driver, but not necessarily with short irons because a pro golfer often wants to have more forward shaft lean with shorter irons.
Jeff.
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janik
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Post by janik on Sept 11, 2022 4:11:43 GMT -5
Hi mngolfer,
I also ponder about this topic. I noticed in slow motion “practice swings” of mine, the left wrist is not rotated sufficiently enough and the club face is about 15 deg open! So the correction my brain uses during an actual swing is a really early release, which is not ideal.
I also can’t understand how the forearm rotation is meant to be both passive and still return the face to +\- 2 deg of square at the point where the ball happens to be. Even tour pros hit really wild tee shots - why doesnt their face square up perfectly 100% of the time?
Another one: they often play around slightly with ball position to hit different types of shots. Why are they still able to have their arms passively rotate to the desired point of the arc where the ball happens to be?
I would contend that it is possible that tour pros have learned the skill that is timing the forearm rotation through years of practice, especially during their formative years as children. It could be so well practiced that it is indeed now sub conscious and therefore likened to be passive. A bit like a race car driver making fine adjustments to the throttle pedal mid corner. It is both active and passive at the same time; active if me or you had to do it, passive for them and they couldn’t even explain what they are doing!
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Sept 11, 2022 6:37:09 GMT -5
Hi mngolfer, I also ponder about this topic. I noticed in slow motion “practice swings” of mine, the left wrist is not rotated sufficiently enough and the club face is about 15 deg open! So the correction my brain uses during an actual swing is a really early release, which is not ideal. I also can’t understand how the forearm rotation is meant to be both passive and still return the face to +\- 2 deg of square at the point where the ball happens to be. Even tour pros hit really wild tee shots - why doesnt their face square up perfectly 100% of the time? Another one: they often play around slightly with ball position to hit different types of shots. Why are they still able to have their arms passively rotate to the desired point of the arc where the ball happens to be? I would contend that it is possible that tour pros have learned the skill that is timing the forearm rotation through years of practice, especially during their formative years as children. It could be so well practiced that it is indeed now sub conscious and therefore likened to be passive. A bit like a race car driver making fine adjustments to the throttle pedal mid corner. It is both active and passive at the same time; active if me or you had to do it, passive for them and they couldn’t even explain what they are doing! It is theoretically possible to use Dr Sasho Mackenzies mechanism to passively close the clubface or the Ryke effect. Personally, I think it's the same physics involved but Kevin Ryan has never replied back when I've asked the question. You can read more about it on Dr Mann's 'Downswing' chapter. perfectgolfswingreview.net/downswing.htmNote what Dr Mann says in that chapter: I don't disagree with Sasho MacKenzie's theoretical reasoning, but a relevant question then becomes-: Which type of golfer will most benefit from this passive angular impulse phenomenon that is secondary to shallowing the clubshaft during the early-mid downswing? I believe that this passive angular impulse phenomenon will be most beneficial to a golfer who uses a weak-neutral lead hand grip strength, because he will require the greatest amount of lead forearm supination in the later downswing in order to square the clubface by impact. By contrast, a golfer, who uses a very strong lead hand grip strength (like Jamie Sadlowski), will require very little lead forearm supination in his later downswing in order to get a square clubface by impact, and it therefore seemingly makes sense that Jamie Sadlowksi does not shallow his clubshaft during his early-mid downswing.
DG PS. It would still involve a lot of practice and timing to perfect the club orientation at impact to meet your intent for different shots.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 11, 2022 10:30:23 GMT -5
The pertinent question arises for a golfer who uses a weak-or-neutral lead hand grip - how does one consistently time the release of PA#3 so that the clubface becomes square by impact if the PA#3 release phenomenon (which is primarily due to lead forearm supination) is passive. I think that it is easy to accomplish if the lead forearm is relaxed and if the golfer has the "correct" intent, which is to get the back of the FLW facing the target at impact. Try a simple experiment - repeatedly perform a downswing action using an impact bag and mentally try to get the back of your lead hand to face the target at the moment of impact bag collision. It should not be difficult for even a non-pro (amateur) golfer to consistently accomplish that goal using an efficient TGM (lead arm) swinging technique. I can do it with a success rate of >95% and I actually have poor hand coordination (which is not even needed in a PA#3 release action performed using the TGM swinging technique because the RYKE phenomenon allows for easy timing of the PA#3 release action).
Jeff.
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janik
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Post by janik on Sept 11, 2022 13:32:30 GMT -5
Hi DG,
I find the subject of passive torque both fascinating and scary - it requires one to hold back the rotation of the forearms in the early downswing in order to let the moment arm take hold. Personally I have not been able to successfully hit a shot in such a way.
Hi Dr. Mann,
If someone’s intent is to rotate the lead hand targetwards then I could argue this is not a passive action. For me, a passive action requires no intent or muscular thought, it simply happens as an effect of other actions. If a release of PA#3 is purely passive, then wouldn’t it also occur in a baseball swing action? (Of course it happens post impact as it is physically impossible to hold it off without breaking one’s elbow).
I would put this experiment to you: hit the impact bag without any lead arm rotation ie hit it with the heel of the club. Can you do it? How so if there is a passive action preventing you from doing so?
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Sept 11, 2022 16:05:12 GMT -5
Hi DG, I find the subject of passive torque both fascinating and scary - it requires one to hold back the rotation of the forearms in the early downswing in order to let the moment arm take hold. Personally I have not been able to successfully hit a shot in such a way. Hi Dr. Mann, If someone’s intent is to rotate the lead hand targetwards then I could argue this is not a passive action. For me, a passive action requires no intent or muscular thought, it simply happens as an effect of other actions. If a release of PA#3 is purely passive, then wouldn’t it also occur in a baseball swing action? (Of course it happens post impact as it is physically impossible to hold it off without breaking one’s elbow). I would put this experiment to you: hit the impact bag without any lead arm rotation ie hit it with the heel of the club. Can you do it? How so if there is a passive action preventing you from doing so? It doesn't require the golfer to hold back rotation of the forearm in the early downswing if the moment of force you create is not excessive. When there is an angle of 90 degrees between the shaft and lead arm (ie. as in the early downswing), the MOI of the club is at its maximum and it's very difficult to topple the shaft over and off plane (ie. over the top). I don't shallow the club by very much so its COM is slightly under my lead arm plane, therefore the moment arm is not very large and can't topple the club over. If you hold your lead arm horizontally straight in front of you and just radial deviate your wrist so that the club is also horizontal, feel how heavy the club feels and how much forearm torque it would require to just keep it steady. Even you tilted your 'upper body arm and club' forward together at an angle it would still require a lot of forearm torque to topple the club off plane. I personally do a bit of both (passive torque and forearm rotation) but the forearm rotation is not very energetic and feels passive to me because the MOI of the club about the longitudinal axis of the lead arm becomes very small when the lead wrist uncocks later in the downswing. DG
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janik
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Post by janik on Sept 11, 2022 16:13:35 GMT -5
Hi DG,
Thank you. I find the image of “club horizontal” relative to the spine as a useful datum. For sure it feels much more “laid off” than I am used to but not excessively so. I will try some practice hitting the ball from this position.
Cheers
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 11, 2022 16:43:38 GMT -5
DG,
You wrote-: "It doesn't require the golfer to hold back rotation of the forearm in the early downswing if the moment of force you create is not excessive. When there is an angle of 90 degrees between the shaft and lead arm (ie. as in the early downswing), the MOI of the club is at its maximum and it's very difficult to topple the shaft over and off plane (ie. over the top)".
I totally disagree! I think that it is very easy to "tumble" the clubshaft over-the-plane if one performs an OTT move involving upper torso motion outwards in the direction of the ball-target line or if one prematurely straightens the trail arm between P4 => P5.5 and simultaneously performs a punch elbow motion of the trail arm.
Janik,
It is a waste of time addressing any questions to me as I plan to no longer respond to any of your questions - because you previously wrote in a post that you were not going to even read my reply.
Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Sept 11, 2022 17:37:22 GMT -5
DG, You wrote-: " It doesn't require the golfer to hold back rotation of the forearm in the early downswing if the moment of force you create is not excessive. When there is an angle of 90 degrees between the shaft and lead arm (ie. as in the early downswing), the MOI of the club is at its maximum and it's very difficult to topple the shaft over and off plane (ie. over the top)". I totally disagree! I think that it is very easy to "tumble" the clubshaft over-the-plane if one performs an OTT move involving upper torso motion outwards in the direction of the ball-target line or if one prematurely straightens the trail arm between P4 => P5.5 and simultaneously performs a punch elbow motion of the trail arm. Janik, It is a waste of time addressing any questions to me as I plan to no longer respond to any of your questions - because you previously wrote in a post that you were not going to even read my reply. Jeff. Dr Mann I should have stressed that it's not very easy to 'tumble' the club using the SMK passive torque mechanism only. DG
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janik
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Post by janik on Sept 13, 2022 18:44:40 GMT -5
DG, You wrote-: " It doesn't require the golfer to hold back rotation of the forearm in the early downswing if the moment of force you create is not excessive. When there is an angle of 90 degrees between the shaft and lead arm (ie. as in the early downswing), the MOI of the club is at its maximum and it's very difficult to topple the shaft over and off plane (ie. over the top)". I totally disagree! I think that it is very easy to "tumble" the clubshaft over-the-plane if one performs an OTT move involving upper torso motion outwards in the direction of the ball-target line or if one prematurely straightens the trail arm between P4 => P5.5 and simultaneously performs a punch elbow motion of the trail arm. Janik, It is a waste of time addressing any questions to me as I plan to no longer respond to any of your questions - because you previously wrote in a post that you were not going to even read my reply. Jeff. Hi Dr. Mann, That is fine. However it is convenient of you to leave out the fact that your reply in that instance was rude and condescending. Nonetheless I don’t hold personal grudges on Internet forums and treat each post/topic on its merits. Cheers Janik
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janik
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Post by janik on Sept 18, 2022 15:23:37 GMT -5
Hi all, See the first third of this video from Chris Ryan on “the hand clap drill”. youtu.be/h9olK_T3sMYI would be interested in hearing views on these two ways of looking at how the club face closes: a) consciously via the intent of the hand clap type motion b) passively via other root causes such as club shaft shallowing etc. For me, if a player didn’t have the notion that the club face should rotate towards closed from P6 to P8, then it is quite possible they leave it open in spite of everything else in their swing being “good”. My question is specifically; is it potentially detrimental for an amateur golfer to pursue the notion that there is an utopia swing action that will automatically close the club face every time, vs. them simply having the intent of closing it similar to the hand clap drill demonstrated? Surely one could reasonably argue that years of practicing such a hand clap motion could be analogous with a passive action of club face closure? Cheers Janik
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 18, 2022 17:43:01 GMT -5
Hi all, See the first third of this video from Chris Ryan on “the hand clap drill”. youtu.be/h9olK_T3sMYI would be interested in hearing views on these two ways of looking at how the club face closes: a) consciously via the intent of the hand clap type motion b) passively via other root causes such as club shaft shallowing etc. For me, if a player didn’t have the notion that the club face should rotate towards closed from P6 to P8, then it is quite possible they leave it open in spite of everything else in their swing being “good”. My question is specifically; is it potentially detrimental for an amateur golfer to pursue the notion that there is an utopia swing action that will automatically close the club face every time, vs. them simply having the intent of closing it similar to the hand clap drill demonstrated? Surely one could reasonably argue that years of practicing such a hand clap motion could be analogous with a passive action of club face closure? Cheers Janik I think that Chris Ryan's "hand clap" drill advice is totally wrongheaded advice for a golfer who uses a TGM swinging action - because he implies that the clubface squaring action is controlled by the trail arm as a result of it performing a pronatory trail forearm rotary motion combined with a trail wrist straightening action in the late downswing. However, in a TGM swinging action, it is really the lead forearm's supinatory action that squares the clubface relative to the clubhead path by impact. Here again is Jon Sinclair's graph showing the degree of forearm rotation happening in pro golfers between P6 => P7. The yellow zone represents the late downswing. The green graph shows how much the lead forearm rotates in a supinatory direction between P6 => P7 and the amount is inversely proportional to the strength of the lead hand grip.
The red graph shows that the trail forearm is supinated at P6 and continues to supinate even more between P6 => P6.5. Then it moves slightly counterclockwise to become slightly less supinated between P6.5 => P7, but it is still significantly supinated at impact. It is never frankly pronated at impact - as Chris Ryan demonstrates in his drill. The amount that the trail forearm is supinated at impact depends on the trail hand's grip strength - being very supinated if the adopted trail hand grip strength is strong and being closer to neutral if the adopted trail hand grip strength is weak.
Here is Justin Thomas' late downswing action. Note how much the back of his lead hand rotates counterclockwise between P6 (image 1) and impact (image 3) due to lead forearm supination, and he requires a lot of lead forearm supination to square his clubface by impact because he uses a weak lead hand grip.
Note how little his trail forearm rotates counterclockwise between P6 => P7, and note that his trail forearm is still supinated at impact because he uses a strong trail hand grip.
Note that his trail forearm is even slightly supinated at P7.4 (image 4) and his trail wrist is still bent - and he never allows his trail palm to rotate over his lead hand between P7 => P7.4 in the manner suggested by Chris Ryan.
What causes the back of Justin's lead hand to rotate so much, and so consistently, so that it faces the target at impact when it was facing the camera at P6 - while the back of a baseball player's lead hand would not rotate counterclockwise between P6 => P7? It is due to the RYKE phenomenon, which only happens in a golf club where the clubface is offset at a right-angle relative to the clubshaft - while a baseball bat has no clubface offset that can cause the RYKE phenomenon. The RYKE phenomenon causes the clubhead path to become conically pendular between P6 => P7, with the particular shape of the conical pendular path depending on the accumulator #3 angle that each pro golfer manifests between P6 => P7. The PA#3 release action that happens due to the RYKE phenomenon is passive, and it does not require any active forearm muscular activity.
In these capture images the passive RYKE phenomenon causes the lead hand to continue to supinate after impact to P7.4 (image 4). However, a skilled pro golfer can prevent that post-impact lead forearm supinatory motion from happening if he uses a DH-hand release action - as seen in those capture images of Justin Thomas.
Jeff.
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janik
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Post by janik on Sept 19, 2022 10:35:00 GMT -5
Hi Dr. Mann,
Many thanks for the detailed reply.
I can easily understand how Chris Ryan's trail arm pronatory action is an inaccurate representation of what action closes the club face in the late downswing.
One point I would like to clarify: if the RYKE effect is inducing a force that causes a supination of the lead arm - then how is it that it does not occur for players that adopt a very strong lead hand grip? Have they learned to withstand the RYKE effect?
Thanks Janik
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 19, 2022 15:19:21 GMT -5
Hi Dr. Mann, Many thanks for the detailed reply. I can easily understand how Chris Ryan's trail arm pronatory action is an inaccurate representation of what action closes the club face in the late downswing. One point I would like to clarify: if the RYKE effect is inducing a force that causes a supination of the lead arm - then how is it that it does not occur for players that adopt a very strong lead hand grip? Have they learned to withstand the RYKE effect? Thanks Janik If you look at Kevin Ryan's model showing the RYKE effect, you can see that it presumes that there is an additional cylindrical structure inbuilt into the end of the central arm that allows the end of the central arm to rotate freely/passively in response to an impulsive force that shifts the clubshaft very slightly off-plane. The human equivalent of that cylindrical structure is the peripheral (lower) lead forearm, which can freely rotate counterclockwise to enact the RYKE phenomenon if it is very relaxed and correctly pre-loaded. However, that will only happen if the lead forearm is pronated during the backswing action away from its neutral position and that happens if a golfer uses a weak/neutral lead hand grip. Then the slightest impulsive force will cause the lead lower forearm/lead hand to rotate passively in a counterclockwise direction if the lead forearm is very relaxed. If a golfer uses a very strong lead hand grip, then he has already pronated his lead forearm at address. That means that he does not pronate it more during the backswing action. During the downswing action he keeps the back of his lead hand roughly parallel to the swing plane all the way between P4 => P7 and he maintains a higher level of tension in his lead forearm's musculature that does not allow the RYKE effect to easily happen at the level of the lower lead forearm. That fits in with your opinion that the golfer, who consciously adopts a very strong lead hand grip, has presumably learned how to resist the RYKE effect.
Jeff.
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