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Post by dubiousgolfer on Jan 7, 2023 11:13:47 GMT -5
Dr Mann
I'd like to know your opinion on Scott Cowx's recent video (when you have any spare time).
There are several opinions that I've found confusing :
1. At 10:15 - 11:10 , his opinions on posture and how anterior pelvic tilt can disconnect the upper and lower body. 2. From 12:10 he says anytime you see the ball going a little bit left, one should feel more turn more into that lead arm (ie. dynamic loading of upper lead arm bicep against the chest during transition). At 12:43 he seems to infer that during this loading 'turn' into the lead bicep, while the lead arm is still progressing in the backswing, the wrists load in the way he demonstrates (passive increased lead wrist flexion, right wrist extension - very little radial deviation). 3. From 16:23- 16:46 he mentions how this dynamic turning into the upper lead arm (ie. causing increased lead arm adduction against the chest) needs to be felt 'across the nipple' to get the handle down by impact (much lower and more left). 4. From 16:46-17:19 he implies that if the 'crush' (between chest and upper lead arm) is higher than the nipple, the golfer will tend to have more tilt (not sure if he means secondary spinal tilt or lateral flexion or both). That if that crush happens lower and under the nipple area one can rotate without tilting. 5. From 17:42 onwards - I think he is inferring how important it is to feel that correct crush position during transition to enable the correct tilt, which in turn will influence the correct lead arm path towards impact. 6. From 20:58 onwards he mentions how a low crush point (ie.most 'seat-belty' arm across chest) would be like Jim Furyk .
When looking at Jim Furyk's swing in slow motion , does this mean Scott Cowx is theorising JF has less right lateral flexion of his thoracic spine by having a lower 'crush' point between his chest and lead upper arm during transition?
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 7, 2023 12:48:47 GMT -5
Dr Mann I'd like to know your opinion on Scott Cowx's recent video (when you have any spare time). There are several opinions that I've found confusing : 1. At 10:15 - 11:10 , his opinions on posture and how anterior pelvic tilt can disconnect the upper and lower body. 2. From 12:10 he says anytime you see the ball going a little bit left . one should feel more turn more into that lead arm (ie. dynamic loading of upper lead arm bicep against the chest during transition). At 12:43 he seems to infer that during this loading 'turn' into the lead bicep, while the lead arm is still progressing in the backswing, the wrists load in the way he demonstrates (passive increased lead wrist flexion, right wrist extension - very little radial deviation). 3. From 16:23- 16:46 he mentions how this dynamic turning into the upper lead arm (ie. causing increased lead arm adduction against the chest) needs to be felt 'across the nipple' to get the handle down by impact (much lower and more left). 4. From 16:46-17:19 he implies that if the 'crush' (between chest and upper lead arm) is higher than the nipple, the golfer will tend to have more tilt (not sure if he means secondary spinal tilt or lateral flexion or both). That if that crush happens lower and under the nipple area one can rotate without tilting. 5. From 17:42 onwards - I think he is inferring how important it is to feel that correct crush position during transition to enable the correct tilt, which in turn will influence the correct lead arm path towards impact. 6. From 20:58 onwards he mentions how a low crush point (ie.most 'seat-belty' arm across chest) would be like Jim Furyk . When looking at Jim Furyk's swing in slow motion , does this mean Scott Cowx is theorising JF has less right lateral flexion of his thoracic spine by having a lower 'crush' point between his chest and lead upper arm during transition? DG I think that many of Scott's opinions are irrational. Starting off with the question of the address posture causing too much anterior pelvic tilt and thereby promoting a greater degree of disconnection between the lower body and the upper body - that would only happen if the degree of anterior pelvic tilt is extremely exaggerated causing the golfer to have an excessive amount of lumbar lordosis at address. Here is Nick Faldo's address posture. Note that he retains his "normal" degree of lumbar lordosis at address, and that he has a finite amount of anterior pelvic tilt. However, it is very acceptable as an optional choice to have a flatter lumbar spine at address, with a slightly smaller degree of anterior pelvic tilt at address. The degree of difference in the degree of anterior pelvic tilt would be so small as to be biomechanically inconsequential.
I have never seen a pro golfer "stick his butt out" excessively so that he has too much anterior pelvic tilt at address, and that is a swing fault that is only seen in some beginner golfers. Scott's "idea" of dynamic loading/unloading of the lead upper arm relative to the lead pectoral area makes no sense. Most pro golfers do not even get their lead upper arm so much adducted at P4 that their inner side of the lead upper arm gets firmly adducted against their anterior chest wall. Here are overhead capture images of Rory McIlroy's driver swing. I have drawn a small yellow circular marker over his lead shoulder socket (which is significantly protracted) and a small blue circular marker over his trail shoulder socket.
In image 1 at P4, his shoulders have rotated ~105 degrees to 12:30 o'clock, but his lead arm is positioned at 11:30 o'clock. I therefore think that he still has ~15-20 degrees of angle between his lead arm and his lead upper chest wall, and I do not think that he is really statically loading his lead upper arm against the pectoral area of his chest wall.
Then, note what happens in his early downswing - image 2 is at P4.5 and image 3 is at P5.
Note that his shoulders have rotated a finite amount between P4 => P4.5 and maybe slightly more than his lead arm has rotated in the same horizontal plane of measurement. That means that his lead arm may be fractionally more adducted relative to his lead upper chest at P4.5 - but I seriously doubt that it is causing him to "feel" any increased dynamic pressure-loading of his lead arm against the lead upper chest wall.
At P5, his lead arm is much lower than it was at P4 and I suspect that he has no "feel" of any dynamic loading pressure due to the lead arm being very closely adducted against the lead upper chest wall. I certainly do not believe that he is using the motion of his lead upper chest wall to affect the downward motion of his lead upper arm between P4 => P5 (in the way that Scott suggests starting at the 16:10 minute time point of the video). I think that Scott's comment, between the 16:23 - 16:40 minute time point of the video that one should "feel" the lead upper arm crushing against the chest at nipple level in order to get the lead arm to move appropriately downwards towards impact, is totally irrational because I don't believe that the lead arm should be so much adducted between P5 => P7. Here is Rory McIlroy's mid-late downswing action. Image 1 is at his P6 position. Note that his lead arm is far less adducted compared to the scenario at P5. I strongly suspect that Rory is "feeling" no pressure of his lead upper arm against the nipple area of his lead upper chest wall between P5 => P6.
Image 4 is at impact and one can clearly see that his lead upper arm is not closely adducted against his lead pectoral area and I strongly suspect that he is not "feeling" any significant pressure of his lead upper arm against his lead upper chest wall at impact. What about pro golfers who have a more open shoulder/chest alignment at impact.
Here is Joaquinn Niemann at impact. Note how open his chest/shoulders are at impact (image 3), but even he does not have his lead upper arm tightly adducted against his lead upper chest wall at impact.
Regarding Scott's comment that if one correctly applies dynamic loading pressure against the lead upper arm by turning one's chest into the lead biceps, and how the chest position of "felt" dynamic loading pressure affects a golfer's tendency to acquire body tilt versus body turn - I can only say "phew!" because I think that Scott's opinion is unscientific and irrational!
Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Jan 7, 2023 18:41:17 GMT -5
Many thanks Dr Mann
DG
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ddono
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Post by ddono on Jan 8, 2023 10:35:18 GMT -5
Dr Mann, since he describes the “turn into” feel happening at transition,and most pros begin transition just before P4 happens,how do you know Rory hasn’t dynamically loaded into his peck already by the image 1 of P4 above, that you use to refute his opinion?
I personally find his explanations of wrist motions types seen in pro golf swings and body motions used to support those release types very logical. Release type A is very consistent with your DH release theory, he just has defined what type B is that we see many newer pros performing. What I like about Scott’s video’s is he has tied it all together with body motions and data from wrist motion sensors ,body motion sensors and associated trackman data ,to help instructors identify how to help people play to the best of their abilities.
As for JN swing, he has a Type A or your DH release style but keeps right arm flexed so he need’s an incredible amount of side bend to get down to the ball and his left arm is not adducted as it would not be in a type A or as you say DH release.
Again I find scott’s explanations very sensical to me, especially when he uses dewiz/trackman data to immediately demonstrate the result with students. I find it refreshing to have someone who combines a definition of what is happening in the various golf swing style’s of pro’s , with things you actually do if you want to try to change/improve towards one of their style’s. He also points out the physical capabilities you must have for both type’s and where your misses will be if you try and don’t have the physical ability to do the underlying body motions required to support the release style. That to me is fantastic.
Now don’t get me wrong, your work and the definition of the DH release was fantastic, especially considering the effort it took to look at all the photo sequences you did. But scott is using todays technology to define another release style, and then gives things you need to do if you want to improve either of those,which is what I think most golfers are looking for,ie “what do I need to do to improve”
Again many thanks for all your efforts
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Jan 8, 2023 11:10:26 GMT -5
There does seem to be some evidence (although difficult to see clearly) that proves that there isn't any significant dynamic loading into Rory's peck by looking at his kinematic sequence graph. The blue 'lead arm' graph seems steeper during downswing than the green torso graph which suggests that the 3D angular velocity of the arm is quicker than the 3d angular velocity of the torso. If the peck was pushing the lead upper arm around in the downswing, I would have thought the graphs would be more aligned on top of each other. I'm unsure what high-tech equipment Scott Cowx has at his disposal , but his hand release opinions seem to be based on measurements using his HackMotion device which has a very low 100 Hz frequency compared to some 3D sensor systems. For example , Dr Kwon's 3D system works at 1000 Hz but it's still too slow to measure the wrist actions from P7-P7.2 in a pro-golfer's swing. Here is a clearer magnified image of Rory's kinematic sequence graph. The blue arm graph does seem to have a steeper slope during the downswing than the torso green graph but there may be some very small period of time where they are aligned together before the blue graph crosses above the green graph. DG PS. Just noticed something about the above graphs where the 'club' brown graph has a higher angular velocity during 'transition/early downswing' than the lead arm as if Rory was early casting. Then as the downswing progresses it dips below the blue graph (ie. PA2 angle decreases) until PA2# release. How could he be casting the club during the backswing? Doesn't make any sense to me!
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 8, 2023 13:01:33 GMT -5
There does seem to be some evidence (although difficult to see clearly) that proves that there isn't any significant dynamic loading into Rory's peck by looking at his kinematic sequence graph. The blue 'lead arm' graph seems steeper during downswing than the green torso graph which suggests that the 3D angular velocity of the arm is quicker than the 3d angular velocity of the torso. If the peck was pushing the lead upper arm around in the downswing, I would have thought the graphs would be more aligned on top of each other. I'm unsure what high-tech equipment Scott Cowx has at his disposal , but his hand release opinions seem to be based on measurements using his HackMotion device which has a very low 100 Hz frequency compared to some 3D sensor systems. For example , Dr Kwon's 3D system works at 1000 Hz but it's still too slow to measure the wrist actions from P7-P7.2 in a pro-golfer's swing. Here is a clearer magnified image of Rory's kinematic sequence graph. The blue arm graph does seem to have a steeper slope during the downswing than the torso green graph but there may be some very small period of time where they are aligned together before the blue graph crosses above the green graph. DG PS. Just noticed something about the above graphs where the 'club' brown graph has a higher angular velocity during 'transition/early downswing' than the lead arm as if Rory was early casting. Then as the downswing progresses it dips below the blue graph (ie. PA2 angle decreases) until PA2# release. I think that your reasoning represents an useful, but more tangential approach. I prefer a very straightforward approach to showing that the lead anterior chest wall cannot possibly be pushing against Rory's lead upper arm at nipple level. Here again are the overhead images of Rory McIlroy's downswing action. Image 3 is at his P5 position, when the lead arm is horizontal and just above nipple level.
Note that the lead shoulder socket is in a very protracted position which moves the lead shoulder socket even further away from the anterior chest wall.
A better representation of the alignment of the nipple area of his left anterior chest wall relative to his left arm can be obtained by looking at capture images from this Rory McIlroy video.
Capture images of Rory McIlroy at P5.2 when his lead upper arm is at nipple level.
Note the large angle between his lead upper arm and his anterior chest wall at nipple level.
I don't think that there can possibly be any close physical contact between his anterior chest wall at nipple level and the inside of his left upper arm!
In fact, note that Rory's trail upper arm is already fully adducted against the side of his trail mid-upper torso - even though his upper torso has not rotated very much between P4 => P5.2 and his back is still partially facing the target. I think that Rory is performing an active trail upper arm adduction maneuver at a very fast speed between P4 => P5.2 that allows him to move his lead arm/hand groundwards at a faster rate than his upper torso is rotating counterclockwise - as evidenced in that kinematic sequence graph that you posted.
I think that there is zero evidence to support Scott's opinion that it is the rotation of his upper torso that causes Rory's lead arm to be pushed downwards via a crushing pressure-phenomenon happening at nipple level between his lead upper arm and his left anterior chest wall.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 8, 2023 13:37:06 GMT -5
Dr Mann, since he describes the “turn into” feel happening at transition,and most pros begin transition just before P4 happens,how do you know Rory hasn’t dynamically loaded into his peck already by the image 1 of P4 above, that you use to refute his opinion? I personally find his explanations of wrist motions types seen in pro golf swings and body motions used to support those release types very logical. Release type A is very consistent with your DH release theory, he just has defined what type B is that we see many newer pros performing. What I like about Scott’s video’s is he has tied it all together with body motions and data from wrist motion sensors ,body motion sensors and associated trackman data ,to help instructors identify how to help people play to the best of their abilities. As for JN swing, he has a Type A or your DH release style but keeps right arm flexed so he need’s an incredible amount of side bend to get down to the ball and his left arm is not adducted as it would not be in a type A or as you say DH release. Again I find scott’s explanations very sensical to me, especially when he uses dewiz/trackman data to immediately demonstrate the result with students. I find it refreshing to have someone who combines a definition of what is happening in the various golf swing style’s of pro’s , with things you actually do if you want to try to change/improve towards one of their style’s. He also points out the physical capabilities you must have for both type’s and where your misses will be if you try and don’t have the physical ability to do the underlying body motions required to support the release style. That to me is fantastic. Now don’t get me wrong, your work and the definition of the DH release was fantastic, especially considering the effort it took to look at all the photo sequences you did. But scott is using todays technology to define another release style, and then gives things you need to do if you want to improve either of those,which is what I think most golfers are looking for,ie “what do I need to do to improve” Again many thanks for all your efforts You asked-: " Dr Mann, since he describes the “turn into” feel happening at transition,and most pros begin transition just before P4 happens,how do you know Rory hasn’t dynamically loaded into his peck already by the image 1 of P4 above, that you use to refute his opinion?" My answer is simple - his lead shoulder socket is very protracted at P4 and that moves the left upper arm further away from the pectoral area of the chest wall. Secondly, there is a large gap angle of 15-20 degrees between his lead upper arm and his anterior chest wall at P4 and that gap angle does not decrease during his transition move that is happening between P3.75 => P4.25. So, why should I believe that there is a dynamic crushing pressure-loading phenomenon happening between the pectoral area of his left anterior chest wall and his left upper arm between P3.75 => P4.25?
You also wrote-: "As for JN swing, he has a Type A or your DH release style but keeps right arm flexed so he need’s an incredible amount of side bend to get down to the ball and his left arm is not adducted as it would not be in a type A or as you say DH release."
I presume that when you state a type A release style that you are referring to Scott's release style descriptions as described in the following video. I think that Joaquin Niemann cannot possibly be using the type A release style because he adopts a very strong lead hand grip strength. I think that he uses the type C release pattern.
Also, a DH-hand release action is fully compatible with with all of Scott's three release styles (A, B and C). If you think that an explanatory description of Scott's 3 release patterns is useful from a golf instructional perspective, feel free to start a thread where you explain why you harbor that opinion. I would be very interested in learning "something" new and useful. I personally think that Scott's release pattern A is what naturally happens if one adopts a weak/neutral lead hand grip and uses the intact LFFW/GFLW swing technique. I personally think that Scott's release pattern B is what naturally happens if one uses the bowed lead wrist technique (like Jon Rahm and Collin Morikawa) and that Scott's release pattern C is naturally used by golfers who adopt a very strong lead hand grip. Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Jan 10, 2023 19:25:20 GMT -5
Just thought I'd add this twitter link from Erik Barzeski and an image of Rory Mcilroy. If you click on the picture , you will see the full image and shadow showing the space between his upper arm and chest. DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 11, 2023 0:59:12 GMT -5
Just thought I'd add this twitter link from Erik Barzeski and an image of Rory Mcilroy. If you click on the picture , you will see the full image and shadow showing the space between his upper arm and chest. DG Another very accurate way of discerning that his lead arm cannot possibly be fully adducted against the chest wall is to look at his trail arm. Note that his trail upper arm is positioned in front of his trail shirt seam and abducted away from the right side of his torso, and note that his trail upper arm is also internally rotated to a small degree at P4. That combination positions the trail hand well in front of his right shoulder socket, which means that the lead arm must be abducted slightly away from his chest wall by a significant amount. Jeff.
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