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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jul 24, 2023 22:06:44 GMT -5
At long last, Eric has come to realize what body/arm motions are very conducive to a DH-hand release action.
Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Jul 25, 2023 3:02:54 GMT -5
Dr Mann
Yes, this looks like 2 very good videos and easy to understand the logic. The issue is having the flexibility to do the follow-through at speed , which I cannot personally do and have never been able to accomplish (even in my younger days).
DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jul 25, 2023 6:56:23 GMT -5
Dr Mann Yes, this looks like 2 very good videos and easy to understand the logic. The issue is having the flexibility to do the follow-through at speed , which I cannot personally do and have never been able to accomplish (even in my younger days). DG I agree that it requires a lot of athleticism and flexibility to be able to perform the body/arm motions needed to efficiently execute a DH-hand release action and it may not be possible for inflexible senior golfers.
However, it is rewarding to discover that golf instructors, like Eric Cogorno, are seeing the "light" that it is a very viable, alternative hand release action through impact for young athletic/flexible golfers. I think that a DH-hand release action makes more sense than the non-DH hand release action that Eric Cogorno previously recommended in the following videos. Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jul 26, 2023 10:11:17 GMT -5
Consider yet again this EC video. I praised the video because it promotes a DH-hand release action through impact into the early followthrough. However, in the first 1 -2 minutes of the video, EC states that it is the most important video that he has ever produced and that getting the butt end of the club/clubhead as far away from the body between ~P7.2 - P8.5 is the most important "thing" he could teach a student golfer. That makes no sense to me because it only improves the golfer's post-impact time period and it does not help a student golfer improve his golf swing biomechanics between P4 => P7. EC claims that it results in better ball-striking at impact, but he does not explain how that is possible. EC also does not explain the underlying biomechanics that a golfer must perform pre-impact to get the butt end of the club as far away as possible between ~P7.2 - P8.5 while keeping the head back - which he calls an "arc widening" move. What must a golfer do pre-impact to achieve that "arc widening" move that only happens post-impact? EC seemingly gives no advice on that issue other than to state that the head must be kept back and the anterior chest must face skywards! Jeff.
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Post by playing18 on Jul 29, 2023 10:16:45 GMT -5
Dr Mann,
I think EC does a pretty good job of keeping these videos simple yet informative. We know a proper DH release is a consequence of a proper lead arm release motion (pa#4) and this must occur correctly from p4 to p7. One begets the other, and it's nearly impossible to achieve these post-impact positions without doing the pre-impact motions correctly.
As you suggest, however, EC could and should talk about how correct pre-impact mechanics (correct pelvic and chest rotation, correct left and right arm motion and tension, correct sequencing/timing, etc.) make these post-impact mechanics possible...but it's still a nice contribution for him to present the importance of these post-impact positions.
In watching and thinking about these videos, I realize the paradox of extending the body from p5.5 to p7, yet not allowing the head to "pop up". I was under the impression that "early extension" before p5.5 was the main fault to avoid and then in the "on-time extension move" one could raise the head after p5.5. In the sagittal plane, EC shows the simple example of how the body extends in the swing, but as he does this, he raises his head. This is somewhat confusing since EC also says the head is supposed to stay back and down (steady) in the swing. How can the head stay down while the pelvis and spine extend? As you know, it's because the swing is happening in 3D or multiple planes, and the amount of body extension in the sagittal plane is met with an equal amount of right lateral bending in the frontal plane to keep the head from popping up. The more the body extends, the more right lateral bend is needed to keep the head steady. In looking at DJ's swing, it is easy to see how he is extending his body after p5.5, while at the same time performing right lateral bend which keeps his head back and down (steady) through impact. Every cm of upward extension is met with a "canceling out" cm of downward right lateral bend. An amazing simultaneous 3D movement feat happening in the blink of an eye.
However, didn't you mention that some players don't do much right lateral bending? Does this mean they also minimize the extension part in order to keep the head back and down through impact?
Thanks,
Jim playing18
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jul 29, 2023 18:49:48 GMT -5
Jim, Here is an example of a pro golfer -Robert Rock - who does not get any right lateral bend and who keeps his head steady at the same height during his downswing and early followthrough. Note that he does not have much extension of his left mid-upper torso at impact. His upper torso is not very open and his left shoulder socket is not markedly elevated. However, he can still perform a DH-hand release action (full-roll subtype) through impact to P7.2+. Note that he is still looking down at the ball at P7.6 (image 4) so he is not following Eric Cogorno's recommendations of turning the head towards the target and turning one's upper anterior chest skywards through impact. He is also keeping his trail shoulder further back causing a "running-out-of-trail arm" scenario by P7.4 (image 3). Jeff.
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Post by playing18 on Aug 1, 2023 12:21:44 GMT -5
Dr. Mann,
When looking at players like Robert Rock or Gary Woodland, they look to have very little body extension, vertical force production, and right lateral bend from p5.5 to p8, while a player like Dustin Johnson has high body extension, vertical force production, and right lateral bend. Do you think these three swing variables are intertwined and correlate with one another?
Do you know of any elite golfers who have high vertical ground reaction forces who do not significantly extend the pelvis and chest from p5.5 to p8? Also, do you know of any elite golfers who have high vertical ground reaction forces who use very little right lateral bend or secondary axis tilt from 5.5 to p8?
It appears that Dustin Johnson uses right lateral bend (lowering variable) to offset his pelvic and chest extension (elevating variable). How important is maintaining a steady swing center? Do you think Joaquín Niemann’s swing center remains steady (sternum) through impact even though his head lowers significantly?
Do you think players with high vertical jump scores tend to use more vertical force via body extension during the downswing to generate power while those with low vertical jump scores tend to use more horizontal and rotational forces to generate power? Is it likely that RR and GW have low vertical jump scores while DJ and JN have high vertical jump scores?
Thanks,
Jim
playing18
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 2, 2023 10:01:28 GMT -5
Dr. Mann, When looking at players like Robert Rock or Gary Woodland, they look to have very little body extension, vertical force production, and right lateral bend from p5.5 to p8, while a player like Dustin Johnson has high body extension, vertical force production, and right lateral bend. Do you think these three swing variables are intertwined and correlate with one another? Do you know of any elite golfers who have high vertical ground reaction forces who do not significantly extend the pelvis and chest from p5.5 to p8? Also, do you know of any elite golfers who have high vertical ground reaction forces who use very little right lateral bend or secondary axis tilt from 5.5 to p8? It appears that Dustin Johnson uses right lateral bend (lowering variable) to offset his pelvic and chest extension (elevating variable). How important is maintaining a steady swing center? Do you think Joaquín Niemann’s swing center remains steady (sternum) through impact even though his head lowers significantly? Do you think players with high vertical jump scores tend to use more vertical force via body extension during the downswing to generate power while those with low vertical jump scores tend to use more horizontal and rotational forces to generate power? Is it likely that RR and GW have low vertical jump scores while DJ and JN have high vertical jump scores? Thanks, Jim playing18 You stated that DJ has a large vertical force production. How do you know what his vertical GRF measurements are? I do not know whether there is any correlation between the magnitude of the vertical GRF being generated under the lead foot and the degree of extension of the lead leg and lead side of the mid-upper torso in the later downswing. I am personally not interested in knowing what's the magnitude of the vertical GRF measurements in any pro golfer because I do not think that it helps me to better understand their golf swing biomechanics. I think that JN's upper swing center is moving backwards-and-downwards in his later downswing and that it is not remaining steady throughout the downswing action.
Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Aug 2, 2023 10:45:56 GMT -5
Dr Mann I'm not even sure (yet) that there is a correlation between GRF's and clubhead speed. I managed to search out a copy of Dr Kwon's research article and the 'r' values were not that convincing (imho). The image is a bit blurry but I think you can see the 'Driver' column r values. DG
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Post by playing18 on Aug 3, 2023 0:36:37 GMT -5
My main reason for asking these questions has little to do with any force plate data or its relevancy. I am only interested in the biomechanics or movement patterns of a good swing and how these motions manifest themselves in a horizontal, rotational, and vertical direction.
Of the three, I’d like to learn a lot more about the vertical movement component and how it influences both golf swing power and accuracy.
Jim playing 18
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 3, 2023 9:07:13 GMT -5
My main reason for asking these questions has little to do with any force plate data or its relevancy. I am only interested in the biomechanics or movement patterns of a good swing and how these motions manifest themselves in a horizontal, rotational, and vertical direction. Of the three, I’d like to learn a lot more about the vertical movement component and how it influences both golf swing power and accuracy. Jim playing 18 Moving the lead shoulder upwards between P5.5 => P7 is important because it provides the centripetal component of the positive MoF needed to complete the efficient release of PA#2. It also allows for optimised low point control where the divot happens just after ball contact. Some long-drive competitors are "jumpers" who generate a lot of vertical GRF measurements between P5 => P5.2 that presumably helps them hit the ball further via the phenomenon of parametric acceleration. However, other long drive champions hit the ball just as far (~400 - 450 yards) without any "jumping" action. World long drive champion - Tim Burke Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Aug 3, 2023 9:27:57 GMT -5
My main reason for asking these questions has little to do with any force plate data or its relevancy. I am only interested in the biomechanics or movement patterns of a good swing and how these motions manifest themselves in a horizontal, rotational, and vertical direction. Of the three, I’d like to learn a lot more about the vertical movement component and how it influences both golf swing power and accuracy. Jim playing 18 Hi Jim When you asked the question "Do you think players with high vertical jump scores tend to use more vertical force via body extension during the downswing to generate power" that you were assuming improved vertical grfs will generate power to increase clubhead speed? That's why I posted Dr Kwon's force plate data because the r values aren't that impressive in showing a correlation with GRFs and clubhead speed. Therefore the high jump question might be irrelevant when trying to find a correlation with an increase in clubhead speed. From what I gather, a more upward hand path approaching impact will shallow the club path decreasing any rate of change of the angle of attack. The same principal applies if your hand path pull's the grip to the left approaching impact , the rate of change of any in-out clubhead path relative to the ball-target line will also decrease. I wouldn't know whether decreasing the rate of change of the vertical and horizontal clubhead paths would improve accuracy. I'm assuming that hand speed/path could influence the magnitude of the release of PA#2 , but I wouldn't know if there was a direct correlation in change of hand path with grfs. The below SMK images might provide a better visual explanation: DG
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Post by playing18 on Aug 6, 2023 22:22:16 GMT -5
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 7, 2023 15:49:46 GMT -5
Playing18,
I am mentally incapable of understanding what you are saying, so I cannot contribute by providing an answer.
Jeff.
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Post by playing18 on Aug 8, 2023 13:08:59 GMT -5
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