|
Post by Dariusz J on Feb 11, 2013 11:32:22 GMT -5
Jeff,
Several things:
1. no way Snedeker maintain FLW until swivelling; you have omitted one important picture between 4 and 5 where his lead wrist is visibly bent;
2. I said Snedeker's action contains elememts of s-h release type and not that it is a pure example (which would be an extremely rare thing); in fact, it is something between push and slap-hinge;
3. straightening of the rear wrist is also a symptom of losing wrist angles; at least of one wrist; although I understand your position I would be not so sure if it is not enough to classify the release as slap-hinge on the basis of rear wrist only; what I know he would be pleased very much to see that the rear hand is acting faster than the lead one what he claimed as optimal; I know that for you it sounds stupid but perhaps it is not so stupid as you think.
Cheers
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 11, 2013 11:34:44 GMT -5
Greg,
You wrote-: "I believe the best long iron players can control the rate of closure, how fast the club face is closing down in the impact zone.
These players include David Duval, Lee Travino, and Ben Hogan."
I don't know how you define the impact zone, but I simply cannot understand how you can talk about those three golfers who have very different hand release actions through impact - i) DD used a very strong left hand grip and therefore doesn't use a PA#3 release action pre-impact; ii) LT was a swing-hitter who used an active right arm straightening action through impact and was therefore a swing-hitter who used the combination of a CF-arm release action + no-roll hand release action; and BH was a swinger who used a CP-arm release action + no-roll hand release action.
All those three golfer used a DH-release action through the immediate impact zone (between P6.9-P7.1)
Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 11, 2013 11:53:04 GMT -5
Dariusz, You wrote-: " 1. no way Snedeker maintain FLW until swivelling; you have omitted one important picture between 4 and 5 where his lead wrist is visibly bent;" I disagree! Please provide "evidence" of any significant left wrist bending (as occurs in a slap hinge release action). I think that there is only a minimal amount of left wrist bending as he transitions between the end of his followthrough and his finish swivel action (between P7.4 and P8), and that is simply due to the fact that he has to roll his clubshaft onto the inclined plane. As I previously explained in another thread, one can really only keep the left wrist perfectly flat during this transitional zone time period if one uses a CP-arm release action and/or if one has perfect timing of the roll motion. However, any small degree of left wrist bending that occurs well after P7.2 is very different to a slap hinge release action. You also wrote-: " straightening of the rear wrist is also a symptom of losing wrist angles; at least of one wrist; although I understand your position I would be not so sure if it is not enough to classify the release as slap-hinge on the basis of rear wrist only; what I know he would be pleased very much to see that the rear hand is acting faster than the lead one what he claimed as optimal; I know that for you it sounds stupid but perhaps it is not so stupid as you think." I think that straightening of the right wrist has no relevance if one maintains an intact LAFW/FLW through impact. That's the beauty of understanding how to play golf with an intact LAFW. One simply thinks of maintaining a FLW through impact to P7.2+ and one doesn't even have to think of the right wrist, which plays a minor role in the motion of the intact LAFW/FLW through impact (if one is a swinger). If one understands the intact LAFW/FLW concept, then it becomes easily understandable why it is classified as a DH-release action and why it differs from a slap hinge release action - where the left wrist bends between P7 and P7.2 as seen in Vardon's followthrough. Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by tomdavis76 on Feb 11, 2013 12:09:47 GMT -5
thanks for the response, Jeff. I understand the DH on short iron, but am most interested in long-irons accuracy. there has been a lot of very specific analysis on elite drivers (bubba, gainey, Jamie S) but i'd like to see the same for long irons b/c the swings of the elite drivers aren't elite for long-irons. I don't agree with that at all. Looking at Richie's Danger Zone (175 to 225 yards) rankings for 2012, three of Kelvin's Gold Medal winners are in the top ten: Garrigus, McDowell and Dustin. Woodland is 17th and Watson is 20th. That's five out of eight in the top 10%. Other drive-holders in the top five are McIlroy-2nd, Bo Van Pelt-3rd, Tiger-4th. Stricker is 6th. Unfortunately, I can't find face-on video of number 1 Kevin Stadler or 5th place Charlie Beljan. Who are the great long iron players with timing dependent swings? Snedeker underflips, in 2012 he ranked 92nd in Driving Effectiveness and 144th in Danger Zone (175 to 225 yards).
|
|
dhc1
New Member
Posts: 25
|
Post by dhc1 on Feb 11, 2013 12:32:28 GMT -5
Jeffy,
Happy to be disabused but I thought that the Danger Zone stats were biased towards longer hitters b/c they have a higher proportion of par 3 shots (with a perfect lie).
Looking at adjusted par 3 scoring average, dustin johnson is at 61, garrigus at 105, McDowell at 117, woodland at 133, and watson at 165. I realize that this is impacted by short game / putting, but i've shown in other posts that it doesn't get these guys to the top.
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 11, 2013 12:35:16 GMT -5
Jeffy wrote-: " Who are the great long iron players with timing dependent swings? Snedeker underflips, in 2012 he ranked 92nd in Driving Effectiveness and 144th in Danger Zone (175 to 225 yards)>" I never quite understand how other forum members define a "timing dependent" swing. What makes Jeffy classify BS as a "timing dependent" golfer if he maintains a FLW/intact LAFW from P6.9 to P7.2? Is it the fact that be underflips (straightens his right wrist)? I do agree with the general belief that golfers who use a combined CP-arm release action + no-roll hand release action and who maintain a bent right wrist to well beyond impact (like David Toms and Lee Trevino and Tiger Woods in his short iron swings) have a a more stable DH-release action through impact - in a similar manner to a tennis player who performs a two handed backhanded tennis stroke can be considered to have a more stable DH-release action (compared to a one-handed backhanded tennis stroke action). David Toms Lee Trevino Tiger Woods short iron Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by Dariusz J on Feb 11, 2013 12:36:22 GMT -5
Jeff, Let's agree to disagree then. I appreciate your reasoning although I don't agree to it. Ultimately, the only judge here could be Sir Henry. Here is your evidence (and I think you know it very well that it existed): A comparison of a guy who was the closest to use a pure push release (Trevino). Cheers
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 11, 2013 12:46:50 GMT -5
Dariusz, This is your "evidence". Your "evidence" only shows that any golfer who uses a full-roll hand release action after impact followed by a finish swivel action will have a small amount of left wrist bending that occurs well after the P7.2 position - if they do not use a CP-arm release action. Comparing BS to Lee Trevino is ridiculous because BS uses a full-roll hand release action while LT uses a no-roll hand release action. All golfers who uses a no-roll hand release action and who maintain a bent right wrist (like LT and David Toms and Tiger Woods in those three images in my previous post) will maintain a FLW to well beyond the P7.2 position, while underlfippers (like BS) will bend their left wrist after P7.2. However, underflippers are not using a slap hinge release action - because they do not bend their left wrist prior to P7.2 (like Vardon). The Cotton classification system is highly limited because it states that there are only two choices for a non-crossover release action - a push release and a slap hinge release. My classification system has three categories - i) a no-roll DH-hand release action; ii) a full-roll DH-hand release action and iii) a slap hinge release action, which is a non-DH release action. Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by tomdavis76 on Feb 11, 2013 12:50:27 GMT -5
Jeffy, Happy to be disabused but I thought that the Danger Zone stats were biased towards longer hitters b/c they have a higher proportion of par 3 shots (with a perfect lie). Looking at adjusted par 3 scoring average, dustin johnson is at 61, garrigus at 105, McDowell at 117, woodland at 133, and watson at 165. I realize that this is impacted by short game / putting, but i've shown in other posts that it doesn't get these guys to the top. It's the same story if you look at "shots from the fairway/tee box": Stricker 1st McIlroy 2nd McDowell 3rd Tiger 4th Garrigus 5th Van Pelt 7th Some flippers show up as well, like Westwood 6th, Chad Campbell 8th, but they both have very stable clubfaces. Rollers Mickelson and Donald are 83rd and 91st, respectively.
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 11, 2013 13:00:04 GMT -5
Jeffy,
You listed these golfers as performing well between 175-225 yards.
Stricker 1st McIlroy 2nd McDowell 3rd Tiger 4th Garrigus 5th Van Pelt 7th
OK. So, do you regard them as "less timing dependent" golfers and what in what sense do they have "less timing" dependency in their swing actions (compared to their fellow PGA tour golfers like Dustin Johnson and Heath Slocum and Brandt Snedeker and David Toms)?
Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by Dariusz J on Feb 11, 2013 13:10:48 GMT -5
Jeff,
Excuse me if I sound rude -- but who are you to decide what release is what basing on some odd numbers such as e.g. prior to 7.2 ? Who authorized you to be an oracle in the topic of three Cotton release types ? Why do you implant some strange notions as e.g. "underflippers" or "full roll release" to our discusion in Cotton terms ?
The discussion is pointless this way. You hardly understand me and I just started to lose you also.
Cheers
|
|
|
Post by tomdavis76 on Feb 11, 2013 13:24:17 GMT -5
Jeffy, You listed these golfers as performing well between 175-225 yards. Stricker 1st McIlroy 2nd McDowell 3rd Tiger 4th Garrigus 5th Van Pelt 7th OK. So, do you regard them as "less timing dependent" golfers and what in what sense do they have "less timing" dependency in their swing actions (compared to their fellow PGA tour golfers like Dustin Johnson and Heath Slocum and Brandt Snedeker and David Toms)? Jeff. The golfers listed are drive holders, as are Dustin, Heath and Toms. Snedeker is an underflipper. You know where to find a thorough explanation of the differences!
|
|
|
Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 11, 2013 13:26:33 GMT -5
Dariusz - you are not being rude to question why I use the P7.2 position as the cut-off point. It is a very legitimate question. I have arbitrarily defined a hand release action as being DH-stable if it ensures a FLW and stable clubface clubface that faces the target all the way between P6.9-P7.1 (which is my arbitrary definition of the immediate impact zone - colored in orange in the next image). To ensure DH-stability through the immediate impact zone, I arbitrarily prefer to state that the left wrist must remain flat to a little beyond the end of the immediate impact zone, and I have arbitrarily chosen P7.2 as a cut-off point. If the left wrist bends before P7.2, then I classify it as a non-DH release action. This is a non-DH release action. You also asked-" Who authorized you to be an oracle in the topic of three Cotton release types?" I am not an oracle with respect to Cotton's release actions - I am simply a critic, who thinks that they are useless in terms of understanding the biomechanics/mechanics of the different DH-release actions used by professional golfers eg. no-roll hand release action, non-delayed full-roll hand release action (associated with/without underflipping) or delayed full-roll hand release action. Jeff.
|
|
|
Post by richie3jack on Feb 11, 2013 13:35:45 GMT -5
Also, Greg, using Rich's statistics, BS adjusted performance on the par 3s indicate that its not his short game (29th) that puts him in the top decile (13th), it appears that its his ability to ballstrike well. Par-3 play really is not reflective of ballstriking capability. I've poured thru the metrics and have yet to see anything that indicates differently. It is more reflective of the golfer's ability to putt and scramble. There is a far smaller percentage of birdies made on par-3's, that can be increased if the golfer is a really good putter. And if they miss the green, the golfer that can easily get up and down. Lastly, you don't hit drivers on par-3's which is a big part of what encompasses a good ballstriker. Here's a look at the top-30 in Adjusted Par-3 Scoring Average last year: 1. Rory McIlroy 2. Geoff Ogilvy 3. Jason Day 4. Keegan Bradley 5. Ryan Palmer 6. Tiger Woods 7. Richard H. Lee 8. Justin Rose 9. Adam Scott 10. Jim Furyk 11. Brendon de Jonge 12. Padraig Harrington 13. Brandt Snedeker 14. Zach Johnson 15. Jason Dufner 16. Brandt Jobe 17. Matt Kuchar 18. Steve Stricker 19. Kevin Stadler 20. Sean O'Hair 21. Kevin Streelman 22. Louis Oosthuizen 23. Bob Estes 24. Greg Chalmers 25. Ben Curtis 26. Davis Love III 27. Phil Mickelson 28. Tom Gillis 29. Chris Stroud 30. Brian Gay Outside of Stadler, Streelman, Scott and DLIII, each player ranked well in either Short Game and/or Putts Gained. 3JACK
|
|
|
Post by richie3jack on Feb 11, 2013 13:38:56 GMT -5
I have zero sympathy for 3jack's (or any other golf analyst's) statistical analysis of a PGA tour golfer's ball-striking results as being directly reflective of optimal golf swing biomechanics in the presence of a major confounding variable - an individual golfer's raw talent. . I'm measuring ballstriking, not what your (or any other teacher's) preferred swing mechanics look like. And what's to say that Snedeker doesn't have more ballstriking talent than we really think and that if he were to change his mechanics he could strike it even far better than he does now? Lots of possibilities. 3JACK
|
|