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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 12, 2013 19:21:37 GMT -5
Dariusz, You wrote-: " Because Adding "flicking" element will make the motion more natural. Because I don't believe that holding something is good." Why is it more natural to add a "flicking" element and why must it happen at impact? Here is Virtuoso's swing action - presented in capture images. Virtuoso has a FLW at P4, and at P4.5, and at P5, and at P5.5, and at P6, and at P6.5, and at P7, and at P7.5. Why should he suddenly add a "flicking action" after bypassing the P7 position and thereby disrupt his FLW alignment at that time point? Do you believe that it was unnatural for him to "hold" a FLW between P4 and P7? If you can accept that it was natural for him to "hold" a FLW all the way between P4 and P7, then why does it suddenly become unnatural to "hold" a FLW between P7 and P7.5? The same questions apply to David Toms swing. He has a FLW all the way between P4 and P7.5. If you can accept that it was natural for him to "hold" a FLW all the way between P4 and P7, then why does it suddenly become unnatural to "hold" a FLW between P7 and P7.5? Jeff.
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Post by Dariusz J on Feb 13, 2013 5:49:28 GMT -5
Jeff,
Virtuoso said in his new thread that he tends to do something else than what you regard as optimal which can let us to conclude that his swing made to please your eye was not natural to him. The very connotation of "holding" suggests that something is being done to prevent natural thing from happening. Why don't you ask him directly to reveal the truth ?
Moreover, you have an annoying manner to put words into one's mouth that were never spoken. Where did I say that the lead wrist should bent at impact ? I said many times that it bends naturally post-separation. You still bend reality to match your beliefs (that slap-hinge is equal to flipping error).
Lastly, I don't deny what you said before, that after many years something which was unnatural becomes like a second nature. Trevino said many times, as Demaret did too, that they had to learn to hit with a delofted clubface (which demanded holding an arched wrist) because of conditions. They said between verses it was a must for them to acquire something not natural. Toms or similar to him pros, who hits millions of balls per month, could have found many years ago that this is the best way of hitting the ball and it become their second nature. But, noone will convince me, that it is natural not to let wrists release.
Cheers
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dhc1
New Member
Posts: 25
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Post by dhc1 on Feb 13, 2013 11:07:34 GMT -5
Also, Greg, using Rich's statistics, BS adjusted performance on the par 3s indicate that its not his short game (29th) that puts him in the top decile (13th), it appears that its his ability to ballstrike well. Par-3 play really is not reflective of ballstriking capability. I've poured thru the metrics and have yet to see anything that indicates differently. It is more reflective of the golfer's ability to putt and scramble. There is a far smaller percentage of birdies made on par-3's, that can be increased if the golfer is a really good putter. And if they miss the green, the golfer that can easily get up and down. Lastly, you don't hit drivers on par-3's which is a big part of what encompasses a good ballstriker. Here's a look at the top-30 in Adjusted Par-3 Scoring Average last year: 1. Rory McIlroy 2. Geoff Ogilvy 3. Jason Day 4. Keegan Bradley 5. Ryan Palmer 6. Tiger Woods 7. Richard H. Lee 8. Justin Rose 9. Adam Scott 10. Jim Furyk 11. Brendon de Jonge 12. Padraig Harrington 13. Brandt Snedeker 14. Zach Johnson 15. Jason Dufner 16. Brandt Jobe 17. Matt Kuchar 18. Steve Stricker 19. Kevin Stadler 20. Sean O'Hair 21. Kevin Streelman 22. Louis Oosthuizen 23. Bob Estes 24. Greg Chalmers 25. Ben Curtis 26. Davis Love III 27. Phil Mickelson 28. Tom Gillis 29. Chris Stroud 30. Brian Gay Outside of Stadler, Streelman, Scott and DLIII, each player ranked well in either Short Game and/or Putts Gained. 3JACK Thanks, Rich. Is it fair to say that Jeff's GIR % from fairway / tee box from 175 -225 yards is the best metric?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 13, 2013 11:25:41 GMT -5
Dariusz wrote-: " Virtuoso said in his new thread that he tends to do something else than what you regard as optimal which can let us to conclude that his swing made to please your eye was not natural to him. The very connotation of "holding" suggests that something is being done to prevent natural thing from happening. Why don't you ask him directly to reveal the truth ?" Dariusz simply doesn't understand what I am saying in my posts. When I asked Virtuoso to use a delayed roll action, I was not asking him to "hold" a FLW alignment, which he was already doing. I was asking him to delay the roll of his FLW/intact LAFW so that he could keep the clubface facing the target for a few inches longer through impact. In other words, I was instructing him on directional control of his FLW, and I was not asking him to artificially "hold" a FLW as if it was an unnatural action. Virtuoso has shown that he can perform the three types of DH-release action (full-roll, delayed full-roll, no-roll) naturally and he maintains a FLW in all those DH-release actions. He doesn't add a left wrist "flicking" action after impact in a slap hinge manner in any of those DH-release actions. Virtuoso - could you please post and confirm this fact. Could you please also confirm that playing golf with a FLW/intact LAFW is natural and not a contrived "holding" action. Dariusz also wrote-: " Moreover, you have an annoying manner to put words into one's mouth that were never spoken. Where did I say that the lead wrist should bent at impact ? I said many times that it bends naturally post-separation. You still bend reality to match your beliefs (that slap-hinge is equal to flipping error)." I regard a slap hinge release action as a flipping action and it only differs from a pre-impact flipping action because it occurs immediately after impact (between P7 and P7.2). It is still a flipping action because it involves a left wrist bending (horizontal hinging) motion. I regard both pre-impact and immediate post-impact left wrist flipping actions as being swing errors. Dariusz also wrote-: " But, none will convince me, that it is natural not to let wrists release." I agree that Dariusz is not capable of changing his mind. However, I am not really interested in his biased personal opinions - I am primarily interested in understanding the underlying reasons for his flawed thinking. I think that golfers who believe in a post-impact "flicking action" (like Dariusz) are hitting at the ball, instead of swinging through the ball. I think that the "correct" full golf swing motion should not be an attempt to throw the clubhead at the ball, but it should rather be an attempt to swing the left arm/clubshaft through the immediate impact zone to the end of the followthrough/finish. During that left arm/clubshaft swinging motion, the peripheral end of the clubshaft (clubhead) will strike the ball, but a golfer should not alter his swing biomechanics between P6.5 and P7.5 (general impact zone) in any manner if a ball is present. He should perform the same overall body/arm swinging motion when the ball is present as he would perform it when the ball is absent and he is taking a practice swing. In this body/arm motion, there should be no need for a superadded horizontal left wrist hinging motion at any time point between P4 and P7.5. Consider this birds-eye view of Spider's swing (student of Slicefixer). He perfectly exemplifies how a skilled golfer can easily maintain an intact LAFW/FLW throughout the downswing action from P4 to P7.5+. Here are capture images. Image 1 is at P4 - note that he has a FLW. Image 2 is at P5 - note that he has a FLW. Image 3 is at impact - and he has a FLW facing the target. He obviously has a FLW between P5 and P7 - even though his hands cannot be seen because they are obscured by his body. Image 4 is at P7.5 - note that he has a FLW and intact LAFW. Image 5 is at P8 - note that his left wrist is slightly bent, but his clubhead has not bypassed his left arm from a rotational perspective. The red curved arc-line is a tracing of his clubhead arc path. The blue number 1 is his clubhead location at the P4 position, the blue number 2 represents impact and the blue number 3 is at P8. I believe that Spider is simply swinging his clubhead through position 2 (impact) without attempting to add any left wrist "flicking" action (secondary to a horizontal left wrist hinging action) at any time point during his downswing and followthrough (from P4 to P7.5). He is simply swinging through the general impact zone without making any attempt to add any superadded horizontal left wrist hinging motion to his full swing motion (which, as a swinger, is basically a torso pivot motion combined with a left arm swinging motion). Why would he want to add any left wrist flicking action, which could disrupt the smoothness of his clubhead arc through the general impact zone and which would require an additional element of timing to his swing action? Virtually all the professional golfers on tour are using this body/left arm swinging motion and they are not using a slap hinge flipping action between P7 and P7.2 (which is Dariusz's personal preference). Jeff.
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Post by Dariusz J on Feb 13, 2013 12:06:42 GMT -5
Jeff,
I really do not know why you cannot grasp well what I am talking about. Beats me. Let me rephrase in points:
1. Slap-hinge is not my personal preference; it is simply the best natural solution for someone like me that still bring decent results. Can my results be better if I sacrifice time to acquire less natural action ? Possibly, yes but there is no guarantee that it will not be a waste of time because of physical weakness of my body. If I am right and to perform a decent push/DH release one needs factors that I listed and I won't be able to perform them -- it will be a waste of my time; moreover, I am of a strong opinion that a deliberate and not-well acquired push/DH release is much more timing generating than a slap-hinge release and I could easily end with frustration as many of these who decided to go a handle-dragging route;
2. you have just brought another factor to the discussion, namely, hitting the ball or swinging through the ball; while I apreciate your reasoning here, the goal is hitting the ball; one can try to hit through the ball if it helps, but it is not natural to think this way; also, it is completely absurd to think about swinging lead arm only; do you really think that a weekend hacker will start to play suddenly better golf if he starts to think about such things ?
3. I am glad you are not talking any more about bending wrists at impact, but post impact; it is always good to be able to revise a faulty thinking; however, I am still astonished though that you seem still to be uncapable to understand the difference between an error (bending before or during) and crisp contact (bending after impact);
4. I am not negating the fact that a lot of skilled golfers today use the release more similar to pure push/DH than to pure slap-hinge; why ? I have no idea -- perhaps equipment allows for it, perhaps golfers today are much better athletes, etc. however, there are still golfers of the highest class that use, at least, elements of slap-hinging; this fact alone should make you think that condemning this kind of release as an error is a huge mistake.
What should I explain more ? What don't you understand here ? Where is the wall between us ?
Cheers
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 13, 2013 12:35:15 GMT -5
Dariusz,
You asked-: "Where is the wall between us?"
Here is the answer - presented in three comments.
You wrote-: "Can my results be better if I sacrifice time to acquire less natural action?"
Comment #1: You believe that playing golf with an intact LAFW/FLW is less natural than playing golf with a slap hinge (left wrist flicking action) through the immediate post-impact zone (defined as the zone between P7-P7.2). I disagree!
You also wrote-: "you have just brought another factor to the discussion, namely, hitting the ball or swinging through the ball; while I appreciate your reasoning here, the goal is hitting the ball; one can try to hit through the ball if it helps, but it is not natural to think this way."
Comment #2: I disagree! I think that the goal is to generate a desired ball flight that gets the golf ball to go accurately towards a desired target, and I believe that a "swinging through impact" golf instruction teaching philosophy is going to make it much more likely that a golfer will achieve his desired goal than a "hitting at the ball" golf instruction teaching philosophy. I think that it is very natural to think of "swinging through the ball" as if it is merely a soap bubble that will be popped by the clubhead as it bypasses the impact position.
You also wrote-: "I am glad you are not talking any more about bending wrists at impact, but post impact; it is always good to be able to revise a faulty thinking; however, I am still astonished though that you seem still to be uncapable to understand the difference between an error (bending before or during) and crisp contact (bending after impact)
Comment #3: I am still astonished that you cannot understand why I regard both pre-impact, through impact, and immediate post-impact left wrist flipping actions as being equally wrong - because they all involve a superadded horizontal left wrist hinging motion to the golf swing motion. If a golfer times his left wrist flipping action "correctly" as a result of fluke-timing (or as a result of a remarkable raw talent for good timing) then the ball strike will be crisp and effective - but it is still a faulty swing action from my golf instructional perspective. Don't worry about disagreeing with my personal opinion - because this not the BM forum where BM resents disagreements, and often bans the transgressors.
Jeff.
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Post by virtuoso on Feb 13, 2013 12:47:19 GMT -5
Dariusz simply doesn't understand what I am saying in my posts. When I asked Virtuoso to use a delayed roll action, I was not asking him to "hold" a FLW alignment, which he was already doing. I was asking him to delay the roll of his FLW/intact LAFW so that he could keep the clubface facing the target for a few inches longer through impact. In other words, I was instructing him on directional control of his FLW, and I was not asking him to artificially "hold" a FLW as if it was an unnatural action. Virtuoso has shown that he can perform the three types of DH-release action (full-roll, delayed full-roll, no-roll) naturally and he maintains a FLW in all those DH-release actions. He doesn't add a left wrist "flicking" action after impact in a slap hinge manner in any of those DH-release actions. Virtuoso - could you please post and confirm this fact. Could you please also confirm that playing golf with a FLW/intact LAFW is natural and not a contrived "holding" action. Jeff and Dariusz, I confirm that this is true from my point of view.
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Post by Dariusz J on Feb 13, 2013 13:22:09 GMT -5
Comment #1: You believe that playing golf with an intact LAFW/FLW is less natural than playing golf with a slap hinge (left wrist flicking action) through the immediate post-impact zone (defined as the zone between P7-P7.2). I disagree! How can you disagree here if I play the whole life with this kind of release and, therefore, it is the most natural for me ? For me changing this will be implementing unnatural elements ! I am sorry but you cannot disagree with objectively obvious things -- unless, you are capable to instruct me how can I change my release without feeling of ingraining something strange/forced. It only shows how individually different is human perception. I can try to start to think your way, but I cannot guarantee it will work out well. It is like with the hammering nails to the wall example -- thinking to hit the head of the nail as hard as one wants or thinking about hitting the wall (to which the neail is to be hit) through the nail. Let me take some time to experiment before I'll answer you decisively in this matter. I am not afraid of expressing my sincere opinions anywhere, no matter what forum it is. Having read your comment above I simply have to conclude that your golf instructional perspective is narrow. Sorry, but this is how I see it in view of what you've just written. Cheers
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Post by Dariusz J on Feb 13, 2013 13:31:25 GMT -5
Dariusz simply doesn't understand what I am saying in my posts. When I asked Virtuoso to use a delayed roll action, I was not asking him to "hold" a FLW alignment, which he was already doing. I was asking him to delay the roll of his FLW/intact LAFW so that he could keep the clubface facing the target for a few inches longer through impact. In other words, I was instructing him on directional control of his FLW, and I was not asking him to artificially "hold" a FLW as if it was an unnatural action. Virtuoso has shown that he can perform the three types of DH-release action (full-roll, delayed full-roll, no-roll) naturally and he maintains a FLW in all those DH-release actions. He doesn't add a left wrist "flicking" action after impact in a slap hinge manner in any of those DH-release actions. Virtuoso - could you please post and confirm this fact. Could you please also confirm that playing golf with a FLW/intact LAFW is natural and not a contrived "holding" action. Jeff and Dariusz, I confirm that this is true from my point of view. OK, so I have nothing to add but to admit I was wrong as regards the situation with Virtuoso's swing. Thanks for clarification. Cheers
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 13, 2013 16:54:39 GMT -5
Dariusz,
You wrote-:"How can you disagree here if I play the whole life with this kind of release and, therefore, it is the most natural for me ? For me changing this will be implementing unnatural elements! I am sorry but you cannot disagree with objectively obvious things -- unless, you are capable to instruct me how can I change my release without feeling of ingraining something strange/forced."
I can readily understand your claim that a slap hinge release "feels" natural to you, and that maintaining an intact LAFW/FLW may "feel" forced and unnatural to you. However, you are using the term "natural" to represent a "feeling of habitual biomechanical comfort" when I am using the term "natural" to represent a "biomechanically natural golf swing technique that is fundamentally sound" and that can eventually "feel" biomechanically comfortable after one uses it for a long enough time period. Think of Olympic Games high jump competitions and the Fosberry flop technique. Initially, most high jump Olympic athletes didn't use that technique because it didn't "feel" natural to them, but now it is the technique most frequently used by Olympic Games high jumpers. I have no doubt that you have the athleticism, flexibility and skill to learn to play golf with an intact LAFW/FLW if you commit yourself to learning the technique, and there is no doubt that in my mind that you could become a DHer (like Virtuoso).
You also wrote-"It is like with the hammering nails to the wall example -- thinking to hit the head of the nail as hard as one wants or thinking about hitting the wall (to which the nail is to be hit) through the nail".
I don't think that's a good analogy because the wall is an object (destination). One should be thinking of the clubhead path beyond impact and thinking of making the clubhead follow that directional path, and one should be thinking of the speed and smoothness of motion of the clubhead along that path. Most importantly, one should think of maintaining the speed of forward motion of the back of the FLW from P7 to P7.5 so that the clubhead can never bypass the FLW (from a rotational perspective) and thereby produce left wrist bending.
Jeff.
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Post by Dariusz J on Feb 13, 2013 17:02:17 GMT -5
Jeff,
If I may be frank with you, my friend, I would sacrifice any time I could have (and believe me, I have no time for training) I'd train short game and putting. As I said, my tee-to-green game is pretty solid and I doubt I can gain much even with a superior release. Excusing for comparison -- I guess neither Couples nor Westwood would.
Cheers
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 13, 2013 17:17:57 GMT -5
Dariusz,
No problem - I can readily understand why you may not choose to try the FLW/intact LAFW technique.
My posts in this forum is not targeted at convincing any golfer to use my "favored" swing techniques, but rather to intellectually explore/debate many issues relating to golf swing biomechanics/mechanics. We have both vigorously participated in an interesting intellectual debate relating to hand release biomechanics/mechanics, and that is what this forum is all about - an open debate/discussion re: golf swing biomechanics/mechanics.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 13, 2013 22:52:16 GMT -5
Getting back to the topic of BS, I wrote in one of my posts the following-: " I think that BS has a perfect swinger's golf swing action and I cannot see any flaws in his swing. ---- I think that BS maintains a perfectly FLW/intact LAFW throughout his swing action and he uses a delayed full-roll hand release action for his driver swing." I was obviously wrong. Consider again these capture images from his swing video. Although he maintains an intact LAFW/FLW to P7.1 (image 2) he manifests a slap-hinge type of flipping action by P7.2 (image 3). I think that this type of borderline slap hinge swing action comes from slowing down the left arm through impact as he "hits at the ball" while simultaneously allowing the right wrist to prematurely straighten. I much prefer Virtuoso's more biomechanically sound swing action - when he uses a delayed full-roll hand release action or a no-roll hand release action. In both cases, Virtuoso doesn't allow his FLW to slow down after impact and he "swings through" the immediate impact zone. I think that Virtuoso has a much sounder intellectual grasp of swing biomechanics and I hope that his knowledge helps the tour golfers and amateur golfers who he influences/teaches in his professional work. I would like to imagine that my intellectual work effort (as a pet hobby golf theorist) re: golf swing mechanics/biomechanics has had a positive influence on Virtuoso's personal thinking re: golf swing biomechanics/mechanics. Jeff.
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Post by richie3jack on Feb 14, 2013 8:57:50 GMT -5
Thanks, Rich. Is it fair to say that Jeff's GIR % from fairway / tee box from 175 -225 yards is the best metric? Jeff who? Not that it matters, GIR shows us next to nothing from a statistical standpoint. You HAVE to start thinking about proximity to the cup. There's not a Tour player out there that would take most 30 foot putts over 20 foot chips. Nor should they. 3JACK
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Post by virtuoso on Feb 14, 2013 11:47:03 GMT -5
jeff, you have absolutely had a positive influence on my understanding of swing mechanics. I appreciate all your insights and your systematic reasoning.
Looking forward to more in the future!
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