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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 12, 2013 10:12:41 GMT -5
Dariusz,
Of course DH stands for drive-holding. I have often used the term DHer, and I described the biomechanics of drive-holding in question-and-answer number 5 of my impact chapter.
You also wrote-: "You are still mixing flipping (serious swing error aimed at squaring the clubface) with a subconscious friendly valoid release type where clubhead moves squarely to the arc horizontally. Do you seriously believe that such guys as Vardon or Mehlhorn were flipping to help to close the clubface."
I define flipping as a situation where the clubhead bypasses the left hand either before impact or through impact (between P7-P7.2) and according to my definition, Vardon is a flipper. Any independent horizontal left wrist motion involving the left wrist joint that breaks up the structural rigidity of the FLW is flipping because it will destroy the initact LAFW alignment and cause the clubhead to bypass the left hand - and in that sense Vardon is a flipper.
I have never heard of the term "valoid" and I cannot locate it in an online english dictionary or in wikipedia. Please define the term "valoid" and explain the difference between "a subconscious friendly valoid type release" and flipping.
Jeff.
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Post by Dariusz J on Feb 12, 2013 11:15:44 GMT -5
Jeff, First, I mean "valid". "Valoid" is my mistake in writting. Secondly, you're wrong. Neither Vardon, nor anyone using a properly executed slap-hinge release is not a flipper. The process of losing angles starts after contact. Let me try last time. Look closely (the ball is visible and indicates the time): Can you see how flat is Vardon's lead wrist at contact and how it bends after separation ? Mehlhorn now: A true flipper would have lost wrist angles much earlier and could hit the ground before the ball or top the ball just as hackers do. Guys like Vardon or Mehlhorn OTOH would kill almost all of your DH-releasers between tee and green easily, thus, I doubt this kind of release (properly executed) is so much worse. Cheers
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 12, 2013 11:51:19 GMT -5
Dariusz,
I think that your photos show that Vardon is a flipper because his left wrist is bending through impact - defined as being between P7 and P7.1, and not defined as being through the 1/4,000th second impact interval of 0.7" of clubhead travel.
In other words, Vardon is a pro-flipper, and not a pre-impact flipper (what you call a "true flipper"). However, it requires precision timing to consistently be a pro-flipper, rather than a pre-impact flipper, if one introduces any superadded horizontal left wrist flipping motion into one's swing action through impact. Vardon obviously had that requisite level of timing, and do does Lee Westwood, but why should a rational golfer choose a non-DH-release action through the immediate impact zone (between P6.9-P7.1) if it is not absolutely necessary. If Vardon/Melhorn could outperform skilled DHers, it only means that have an exquisite level of raw talent when it comes to timing a flipping motion of the left wrist through impact.
Addendum: Both Vardon and Melhorn have a square pelvis at impact and no active pivot motion through impact. They also do not rotate their left arm counterclockwise after impact. Under those biomechanical constraints, they have no choice but to be pro-flippers. That they played successfully as pro-flippers is a testament to their remarkable left wrist flipping skills, and not reflective of good overall golf swing biomechanics.
Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 12, 2013 11:58:32 GMT -5
There is little proof that those guys hit the ball better than todays modern player. I highly doubt Jesse Owens could beat Bolt in a 100 meter dash. Just because one dominated another generation does not mean anything in terms of comparative ability.
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Post by Dariusz J on Feb 12, 2013 12:04:05 GMT -5
Dariusz, I think that your photos show that Vardon is a flipper because his left wrist is bending through impact - defined as being between P7 and P7.1, and not defined as being through the 1/4,000th second impact interval of 0.7" of clubhead travel. In other words, Vardon is a pro-flipper, and not a pre-impact flipper (what you call a "true flipper"). However, it requires precision timing to consistently be a pro-flipper, rather than a pre-impact flipper, if one introduces any superadded horizontal left wrist flipping motion into one's swing action through impact. Vardon obviously had that requisite level of timing, and do does Lee Westwood, but why should a rational golfer choose a non-DH-release action through the immediate impact zone (between P6.9-P7.1) if it is not absolutely necessary. If Vardon/Melhorn could outperform skilled DHers, it only means that have an exquisite level of raw talent when it comes to timing a flipping motion of the left wrist through impact. Jeff. Jeff, We must see other things then. But more important is your question: "why should a rational golfer choose a non-DH-release action through the immediate impact zone (between P6.9-P7.1) if it is not absolutely necessary" ? The answer is twofold: 1. Because it is necessary, i.e. it is the only option for older fat pricks with physical problems (such as me) and such pricks prefer to preserve a decent pivot and slap-hinge instead being armsy swingers with crossover release which is much worse option accuracy-wise; 2. Because it is the most natural thing for the wrists to do -- to release and not to hold anyhting while swinging a heavy object. Spare me please with examples with one-handed stroke with tennis or badmington racquets. Cheers
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Post by Dariusz J on Feb 12, 2013 12:13:25 GMT -5
There is little proof that those guys hit the ball better than todays modern player. I highly doubt Jesse Owens could beat Bolt in a 100 meter dash. Just because one dominated another generation does not mean anything in terms of comparative ability. I do not care about comparison to today's players. Vardon and Mehlhorn were regarded as the best ballstrikers of that era, which let me state that they were better than anyone else with a "better" release type from tee to green in these times. Unless you want to assume that everyone in these times used slap-hinge release type (which we know wasn't true). What else to add here ? Cheers
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Post by Dariusz J on Feb 12, 2013 12:15:33 GMT -5
Addendum: Both Vardon and Melhorn have a square pelvis at impact and no active pivot motion through impact. They also do not rotate their left arm counterclockwise after impact. Under those biomechanical constraints, they have no choice but to be pro-flippers. That they played successfully as pro-flippers is a testament to their remarkable left wrist flipping skills, and not reflective of good overall golf swing biomechanics. Jeff. What Have you seen Mehlhorn's and Vardon's motions ? They had very decent pivots. If they had not, they would crossover like hell. Cheers
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 12, 2013 12:20:01 GMT -5
There is little proof that those guys hit the ball better than todays modern player. I highly doubt Jesse Owens could beat Bolt in a 100 meter dash. Just because one dominated another generation does not mean anything in terms of comparative ability. I do not care about comparison to today's players. Vardon and Mehlhorn were regarded as the best ballstrikers of that era, which let me state that they were better than anyone else with a "better" release type from tee to green in these times. Unless you want to assume that everyone in these times used slap-hinge release type (which we know wasn't true). What else to add here ? Cheers Maybe they just understood their equiptment more. I would argue there were more releases like theirs than like Dustin Johnsons in that era.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 12, 2013 12:21:50 GMT -5
Dariusz,
You wrote-:
1. Because it is necessary, i.e. it is the only option for older fat pricks with physical problems (such as me) and such pricks prefer to preserve a decent pivot and slap-hinge instead being armsy swingers with crossover release which is much worse option accuracy-wise;
Nonsense!
This is your swing action.
You pivot very actively/efficiently through impact, and there is no need for you to use a timing-dependent non-DH-release action.
2. Because it is the most natural thing for the wrists to do -- to release and not to hold anyhting while swinging a heavy object.
I agree that it is natural for the left wrist to flip-hinge through impact when swinging an object like a golf club or tennis racquet, but a skilled golfer must learn to eliminate that natural uncontrolled tendency to flip through impact. He needs to learn how to maintain an intact LAFW from P4 to P7.5 - like most pro golfers - and that acquired skill becomes natural with time.
I can see nothing unnatural in Virtuoso's swing action or Keegan Bradley's swing action - they both maintain a FLW/intact LAFW from P4 to P7.5.
Virtuoso
Keegan Bradley
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 12, 2013 12:25:05 GMT -5
Dariusz,
You wrote-"Have you seen Mehlhorn's and Vardon's motions ? They had very decent pivots."
Not through impact!
If you disagree, then post capture images from P6.5, P7 and P7.5.
Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 12, 2013 12:27:25 GMT -5
Dariusz, You wrote-" Have you seen Mehlhorn's and Vardon's motions ? They had very decent pivots." Not through impact! If you disagree, then post capture images from P6.5, P7 and P7.5. Jeff. Yea that gif does not look like a very good pivot to me, and with the equiptment of the era it probably justified.
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Post by Dariusz J on Feb 12, 2013 12:55:23 GMT -5
Maybe they just understood their equiptment more. I would argue there were more releases like theirs than like Dustin Johnsons in that era. This I can agree with. For sure there were more slap-hingers than today on tour. But again, what is interesting is that two slap-hingers were choosen as ballstriking masters of that time. Just to add -- we all know that Hogan, arguably the best ballstriker of all times, earned this status while introducing some slap-hinge elements to his release post-secret. Lastly, Cotton was so sure that in order to find the best release there must be a mixture of "flicking" and "pushing". I am more than sure he would add some hinging to golfers as Johnson and most probably they would become less wild off the tee. But this is just my private subjective opinion and I won't be stubborn in convincing anyone to this. Cheers
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Post by Dariusz J on Feb 12, 2013 13:09:41 GMT -5
Dariusz, You wrote-" Have you seen Mehlhorn's and Vardon's motions ? They had very decent pivots." Not through impact! If you disagree, then post capture images from P6.5, P7 and P7.5. Jeff. Jeff, Of course their pivot in the impact zone wasn't so great as in case of push/DH releasers. But better than in case of crossover releasers. Now, thanks a lot for your compliments on my pivot, but I can assure you that the most natural thing for me with this pivot quality is to deliver wrist angles and to release them freely in a slap-hinge manner. You also said "I agree that it is natural for the left wrist to flip-hinge through impact when swinging an object like a golf club or tennis racquet, but a skilled golfer must learn to eliminate that natural uncontrolled tendency to flip through impact. He needs to learn how to maintain an intact LAFW from P4 to P7.5 - like most pro golfers - and that acquired skill becomes natural with time." This is the essence of everything. You have just confirmed that slap-hinge release is the most natural one. Now, not everyone: - wants to sacrifice time to acquire something that is more artificial; - is physically capable to do so; contrary to what you see in my "great" pivot you did not see how fat I am (making my arms even shorter) and how inelastic I am in the lumbar spine (which is critical IMO); I claim I am not physically capable to swing similarily to Virtuoso even if my pivot is better (theoretically). Do not condemn what is good even if it is not optimal. I am being regarded as a very accurate player not making many mistakes from tee to green. What I need most is good short game and putting, not an acquired artificial push release. Cheers
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 12, 2013 17:41:42 GMT -5
Dariusz,
You wrote-: "Lastly, Cotton was so sure that in order to find the best release there must be a mixture of "flicking" and "pushing". I am more than sure he would add some hinging to golfers as Johnson and most probably they would become less wild off the tee. But this is just my private subjective opinion and I won't be stubborn in convincing anyone to this."
You are to harbor those bold-highlighted opinions, but why do you express personal opinions in a public forum devoted to the discussion/debate of golf swing biomechanics/mechanics issues - if you are not willing to provide explanatory reasoning for your beliefs? How can the addition of left wrist hinging make a golfer less wild off the tee? How can any forum member take your personal opinions seriously if you never provide any explanatory reasoning, and if you only express personal preferences. I, in particular, am far less in interested in a forum member's personal preferences, and I am much more interested in the logical reasoning that may rationally justify their personal preference - because that may point in a direction that suggests that the individual's personal preference may be useful to a wider selection of golfers.
You also wrote-: "This is the essence of everything. You have just confirmed that slap-hinge release is the most natural one. Now, not everyone wants to sacrifice time to acquire something that is more artificial."
You have misunderstood my position. I have only stated that if one swings an object like a golf club that has a weight at the peripheral end, that the left wrist will bend if you choose to allow the left wrist to hinge freely in a horizontal manner. However, that doesn't mean that bending the left wrist is natural to a golf stroke's release action. I think that maintaining a FLW through impact is natural to a golf stroke action - in the same way that maintaining a FLW through impact is natural to a tennis stroke action. I don't for one second accept your belief that Virtuoso is not swinging his golf club in a natural way when he maintains a FLW from P4 to P7.3+. Why should Virtuoso even think that it would be more natural to let his left wrist hinge freely in a horizontal manner between P6.5 and P7.5 when he performs his golf stroke action? The same analogy applies to the biomechanical fact that he maintains a straight left arm and doesn't allow it to bend between P4 and P7.5. I think that it is perfectly natural for him to maintain a straight left arm. Why should it be more natural for him to markedly bend his left arm between P4 and P7.5 when he performs his full golf swing action?
Jeff.
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Post by Dariusz J on Feb 12, 2013 18:07:32 GMT -5
You are to harbor those bold-highlighted opinions, but why do you express personal opinions in a public forum devoted to the discussion/debate of golf swing biomechanics/mechanics issues - if you are not willing to provide explanatory reasoning for your beliefs? How can the addition of left wrist hinging make a golfer less wild off the tee? How can any forum member take your personal opinions seriously if you never provide any explanatory reasoning, and if you only express personal preferences. I, in particular, am far less in interested in a forum member's personal preferences, and I am much more interested in the logical reasoning that may rationally justify their personal preference - because that may point in a direction that suggests that the individual's personal preference may be useful to a wider selection of golfers. Because I read Cotton's book and know his preferences in teachings. Because Adding "flicking" element will make the motion more natural. Because I don't believe that holding something is good. But, I won't betrying to convince anyone to my beliefs. What I will always do is to fight against opinions that slap-hinge release is not a valid form of release. Lastly, do not put words in my mouth. I never said anything decisive about Virtuoso's "improved on your request to please your eyes" swing. AFAIR, we ended the discussion in the point that you were to ask him if modyfying his swing in regard to holding angles longer after separation felt natural or not so natural and requyiring conscious thoughts. Let Virtuoso speak. Cheers
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