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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 27, 2015 14:13:23 GMT -5
I am amazed that so many golf forum members at Jeffy's golf forum and at BM's golf forum do not understand what's the definition of "handle-dragging" when it's such an easy concept to understand. "Handle-dragging" is a derogatory term that non-TGMers use when referring to the TGM concept of maintaining lag to-and-through impact - and "maintaining lag" through impact means that the hands must always be ahead of the clubhead so that there is forward shaft lean at-and-through impact. Here is an example featuring Michelle Wie. Image 3 shows that MW's hands are well ahead of the clubhead at impact and she is exhibiting a classical "handle-dragging" swing action. Note that the clubhead has not even bypassed her hands at P7.5 (image 4). Here is another example - Lexi Thompson. Many pro golfers use a "handle-dragging" swing technique very successfully/efficiently for their short iron shots. Here is an image where Tiger Woods is using a "handle-dragging" swing technique for his "stinger" shot. Note the large amount of forward shaft lean that exists at/through impact, which means that TW is deliberately "maintaining lag" through impact. BM's wrongheaded belief that "handle-dragging" is a swing fault - see forum.brianmanzellagolf.com/golfing-discussions/18579-example-4-kinds-handle-dragging.html - reflects his typical lack of knowledge re: golf swing mechanics. Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 28, 2015 18:49:39 GMT -5
Here is Joe Mayo's opinions on the topic of "handle-dragging". He wrongly thinks that "handle-dragging" is defined by the downward motion of the hands and he wrongly believes that it is causally associated with bent knees at impact. However, both Michelle and Lexi have a straight left leg at impact. He gets it wrong because he thinks that "handle-dragging" is defined by the downward motion of the hands, when it is really defined by the forward motion of the hands being fast enough in the late downswing to allow a golfer to "maintain lag" and prevent the clubhead from catching-up to the hands through impact. Phil Mickelson's "hinge-and-hold" technique, which he defines in great detail in his short-game book/DVD, is fundamentally a "handle-dragging technique" because he "holds" the lag and prevents the clubhead from bypassing his hands through impact. Here is an example of Phil Mickelson hitting a lob shot using his "hinge-and-hold" swing technique. He is basically using a "handle-dragging" swing technique - without bent knees and without his hands moving downwards through impact. Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 30, 2015 22:04:57 GMT -5
In his forum thread on handle-dragging, BM wrote-: "When a couple of pals of mine who teach on the tour went to get on ENSO and get their players measured...
THE ONES THAT HANDLE-DRUG HAS A HIGHER RATE OF CLOSURE!!!
The speed has to go somewhere...."
BM has never defined "handle-dragging" and he doesn't state which players he is referring to when he asserts that they are handle-draggers. His claim that they have a higher ROC through impact makes no sense, and the same applies to his statement that the "speed has to go somewhere". BM always gets away with making nonsensical claims because his BM-groupies are so incapable of understanding golg swing biomechanics/mechanics.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 30, 2015 22:21:24 GMT -5
mp29 in the BM forum thread on "handle-dragging" posted this you-tube video of Jordan Spieth. mp29 then stated-: " His left wrist stays in flexion forever. He could be a TGM poster boy. If he isn't HDing, exactly what is he doing?"
JS isn't "handle-dragging" in his driver swing - he is simply using a drive-hold hand release action. Here are capture images from the video. Note that he allows the clubhead to catchup to his hands so he is not "handle-dragging". However, he doesn't allow the clubshaft to bypass his left arm between P7 and P7.4 so he is drive-holding. Note that he maintains an arched left wrist and bent right wrist and he is perfect exemplar of a DHer. The key biomechanical element that allows him to be a perfect DHer is that he maintains the forward motion of his left hand between P7 and P7.4 so that the forward angular velocity of his left arm is perfectly matched to the forward angular velocity of the clubshaft. He certainly doesn't use BM's rotation-about-the-coupling point hand release action as demonstrated by BM in this capture image from one of his now-deleted vimeo videos. Note BM's bent left wrist and straightened right wrist. That's a perfect example of a non-DH hand release action due to left arm stalling after impact! Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jul 2, 2015 9:04:52 GMT -5
Here is the logo that Manzella uses on his BM-forum - featuring his personal swing action at the P7.5 position. Note that he has a slightly arched left wrist and there is no evidence of left wrist extension. In other words, BM is obviously a DHer through impact and he doesn't personally use the rotation-about-the-coupling point hand release action that he has regularly promoted in his golf instructional teaching posts in his BM-forum. I am amazed that his BM-groupies cannot perceive the "contradiction" between his personal swing action and his personal golf instructional advice. Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jul 24, 2015 18:32:50 GMT -5
A BM golf forum member accused BM of not defining "handle-dragging" precisely and BM responded by stating that he has has defined it 100 ways and "The easiest way to measure it in Jacobs 3D is grip speed vs. alpha (in plane) rotation down around impact."
LOL!
I would like to see him use that measurement technique to differentiate "handle-dragging" from "drive-holding".
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jul 27, 2015 9:24:55 GMT -5
BM is obviously irritated with the comments of certain BM-forum members who question his ability to define "handle-dragging" in 100 different ways, so he posted this post today in his BM-forum. " Look....
You have a certain SPEED of the mid point of the grip.
You have a certain SPEED of the in the plane rotation of the top of the grip past the bottom.
On the abject THROWAWAY side, you have very little speed of the mid point of the grip and a relatively high speed of the in the plane rotation of the top of the grip past the bottom of the grip.
On the MASSIVE HANDLE-DRAGGING side, you have a relatively high speed of the mid point of the grip and a relatively low speed of the in the plane rotation of the top of the grip past the bottom of the grip.
That's it." I think that his definition of "handle-dragging" is obviously wrong!!! He is defining the difference between "throwaway" and "handle-dragging" on the relationship between the i) forward speed of motion of the mid-section of the grip and the ii) speed of rotation of the club around the coupling point between the hands. "Throwaway" during the club's travel through the immediate impact zone will cause the left wrist to bend (which is what is usually meant by the term "left wrist flipping") and it represents a non-DH hand release action. By contrast, if the bottom, midpoint and top part of the grip move at the same speed (same angular velocity) through the immediate impact zone, with a " relatively low speed of the in the plane rotation of the top of the grip past the bottom of the grip" then the golfer is drive-holding. Consider an example - Kelli Oride. Kelli Oride super slow-motion swing video. When you watch the video, you will note that she is allowing the club to catch-up to her hands by impact, and she is not deliberately trying to maintain lag, and ensure forward shaft lean, through impact (which is my personal definition of "handle-dragging"). However, she then ensures that she doesn't flip her left wrist through, or immediately after, impact. Here are capture images from the video. Note that she maintains a FLW and doesn't allow her clubshaft to bypass her straight left arm (from an angular velocity perspective) between impact (image 1) and P7.3 (image 3). Image 4 is a composite image and the accompanying diagram shows that her FLW (blue dot) is moving at the same angular velocity as the clubhead (orange dot) between P7 and P7.3. That means that the top, midpoint and bottom of the grip must all be moving at the same angular velocity, which also means that there is a very low rate of rotation around the coupling point happening between P7 and P7.3. That defines a drive-hold hand release action through impact. But, "drive-holding" is not the same concept as "handle-dragging"! If a golfer uses a "handle-dragging" swing technique through impact, there will be a zero, or very, very low rate of rotation of the handle around the coupling point point between P7 and P7.3. Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jul 27, 2015 18:36:51 GMT -5
Here is a series of capture images that shows a "handle-dragging" swing technique. Jordan Spieth super slow motion video Here are swing video capture images through impact. Image 1 shows impact. Note how far back he has positioned the ball in his stance. Note that his hands are well ahead of the ball at impact. Note the marked degree of forward shaft lean at impact. Note how he keeps his hands moving actively forwards after impact with no stalling motion of his left arm. Note how he deliberately prevents the clubhead from catching up to his hands after impact. Note his flat/slightly arched left wrist and significantly bent right wrist. There is probably no (or very little) rotation of his hands around the coupling point through impact (images 1 => 3) while the midsection of the grip is being actively pulled forward through impact. That's my concept of "handle-dragging"! Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 3, 2015 12:19:05 GMT -5
See post #23 in this BM-forum thread - forum.brianmanzellagolf.com/golfing-discussions/9053-natural-release-action-pingman-machine-3.html - which I actually initiated in 2009 (before I was banned from BM's forum). BM wrote-: " You HAVE TO APPLY TORQUE FROM THE HANDS.....PingMan "fakes" that by altering the acceleration profiles of the rotor." I don't think that carefully setting the acceleration profiles of the Pingman machine is a "fake" technique. It's a very necessary technique to ensure that the driven-DP's central arm release action (which is equivalent to a pivot-induced release of PA#4 in a "real life" pro golfer) is optimized. A "real life" pro golfer optimizes his PA#4 release action biomechanically (while the Pingman machine has to use its acceleration profiles) so that they both can work according to the fundamental principles of a driven-DP swing model, where the left wrist releases without needing any positive wrist torque. However, I can easily understand why BM needs positive wrist torque in his present-day swing action - when you watch the inefficiency of his present-day body pivot action (compared to his personal golf swing action of 20-30 years ago). Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 20, 2015 9:35:13 GMT -5
A few posts back, I posted this image of BM's logo that exists in his BM forum. I stated that his left arm-clubshaft relationship and arched left wrist was incompatible with a rotation-about-the-coupling point hand release action through impact, and that it was very compatible with a DH-hand release action. I noted that Wulsy (forum member of BM's forum) brought this issue up in the BM forum. See - forum.brianmanzellagolf.com/golfing-discussions/18609-brians-left-wrist.htmlWulsy asked BM why his left wrist was not cupped. This was BM's answer. " My left wrist is MASSIVELY moving into extension.
It was FLEXED (arched) at impact.
JUST BEFORE impact, it was SUPER FLEXED (arched)." That answer is typical of BM's obfuscatory tactics that can easily work with his BM groupies, who cannot perceive that he is talking nonsense. If his left wrist is MASSIVELY moving into extension soon after impact, then it should be visibly bent at the P7.5 position and his clubshaft should have bypassed his left arm from a rotary angular perspective. His clubshaft has not bypassed his left arm when viewed form a birds-eye viewing rotary angular perspective, which means that he was likely drive-holding between P7 and P7.2. According to my definition of drive-holding, the clubface can be deemed to be stable through the immediate impact zone between P7 and P7.2 if the clubshaft doesn't bypass the left arm from a rotary angular perspective - even if a small amount of left wrist bending motion from palmar flexion => extension is happening. If the amount of left wrist bending motion is larger, it would result in the clubshaft bypassing the left arm. If the amount of left wrist bending motion is massive, then one would expect to see an overtly bent left wrist at the P7.5 position. Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 22, 2015 9:13:47 GMT -5
See this BM-forum thread - forum.brianmanzellagolf.com/golfing-discussions/18577-handle-dragging-just-when-i-thought-i-out-they-drag-me-back-10.htmlBM wrote the following-: " It's pretty simple.....
You DO NOT want your left wrist—in the flexion/extension directions (arched/flat/bent)—to remain in ANY of those conditions for ANY amount of time down by impact.
Why?
Because the clubhead is at the end of the system and HOLDING or MAINTAINING any condition would slow the clubhead down......by definition!
Now, losing all of that clubhead speed, potential dent in the hula-hoop, and less effort might not be the greatest thing going, but what's worse is IF you do that HOLDING or MAINTAINING, the arm won't slow (can't slow)....that makes you an arm dragging, handle dragger that potentially might restrict things further up the chain to accomplish all of this silliness!
Turn that corner and FLICK that thing!" That's BM's "standard" BS theory!!!! The clubhead has already acquired its impact speed by P6.9 and holding the left wrist in an AFLW alignment between P6.9 -P7.2 doesn't slow down its speed. Dustin Johnson is a long-hitter and he "holds" an AFLW between impact and P7.2+ "Flicking" is a perfect recipe for a non-DH hand release action, while most pro golfers use a DH-hand release action - like Jordan Spieth (image below). Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Aug 4, 2023 8:44:12 GMT -5
BM is obviously irritated with the comments of certain BM-forum members who question his ability to define "handle-dragging" in 100 different ways, so he posted this post today in his BM-forum. " Look....
You have a certain SPEED of the mid point of the grip.
You have a certain SPEED of the in the plane rotation of the top of the grip past the bottom.
On the abject THROWAWAY side, you have very little speed of the mid point of the grip and a relatively high speed of the in the plane rotation of the top of the grip past the bottom of the grip.
On the MASSIVE HANDLE-DRAGGING side, you have a relatively high speed of the mid point of the grip and a relatively low speed of the in the plane rotation of the top of the grip past the bottom of the grip.
That's it." I think that his definition of "handle-dragging" is obviously wrong!!! He is defining the difference between "throwaway" and "handle-dragging" on the relationship between the i) forward speed of motion of the mid-section of the grip and the ii) speed of rotation of the club around the coupling point between the hands. "Throwaway" during the club's travel through the immediate impact zone will cause the left wrist to bend (which is what is usually meant by the term "left wrist flipping") and it represents a non-DH hand release action. By contrast, if the bottom, midpoint and top part of the grip move at the same speed (same angular velocity) through the immediate impact zone, with a " relatively low speed of the in the plane rotation of the top of the grip past the bottom of the grip" then the golfer is drive-holding. Consider an example - Kelli Oride. Kelli Oride super slow-motion swing video. When you watch the video, you will note that she is allowing the club to catch-up to her hands by impact, and she is not deliberately trying to maintain lag, and ensure forward shaft lean, through impact (which is my personal definition of "handle-dragging"). However, she then ensures that she doesn't flip her left wrist through, or immediately after, impact. Here are capture images from the video. Note that she maintains a FLW and doesn't allow her clubshaft to bypass her straight left arm (from an angular velocity perspective) between impact (image 1) and P7.3 (image 3). Image 4 is a composite image and the accompanying diagram shows that her FLW (blue dot) is moving at the same angular velocity as the clubhead (orange dot) between P7 and P7.3. That means that the top, midpoint and bottom of the grip must all be moving at the same angular velocity, which also means that there is a very low rate of rotation around the coupling point happening between P7 and P7.3. That defines a drive-hold hand release action through impact. But, "drive-holding" is not the same concept as "handle-dragging"! If a golfer uses a "handle-dragging" swing technique through impact, there will be a zero, or very, very low rate of rotation of the handle around the coupling point point between P7 and P7.3. Jeff. Dr Mann I cannot see much difference between the definition of handle dragging vs DH, except possibly the following: a. The timing of the formation of an intact LAFW . b. The timing of zero/low rate of rotation about coupling point (ie. for handle dragging) c. The timing of the matching angular velocity of the lead arm and club within their instantaneous swing planes and about the longitudinal axis of the lead arm. DH Hand Release: 1. Happens from P6.9 to P7.3 2. Intact LFFW from P1-P7.3 3. Intact LAFW from P6.9 -P7.3 4. Intact GFLW from P1-P7.3 5. Low rate of rotation about the coupling point from P6.9-P7.3 6. Angular velocity of lead arm matching that of the club (within their instantaneous swing planes and also about the longitudinal axis of the lead arm) from P6.9-P7.3 Handle Dragging (ie. let's assume the club does not impact the ground) 1. Probably happens before P6.9 (unsure when) 2. Intact LFFW from P1-P7.3 3. Intact LAFW before P6.9-P7.3 (unsure when) 4. Intact GFLW (with an acceptable bowed lead wrist) from P1-P7.3 5. Zero/Low rate of rotation about the coupling point before P6.9-P7.3 (unsure when). 6. Angular velocity of lead arm matching that of the club (within their instantaneous swing planes and also about the longitudinal axis of the lead arm) before P6.9 -P7.3 (unsure when). Does the above make sense or have I made errors in my logic? DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 4, 2023 15:01:47 GMT -5
I have a simplistic way of thinking of "handle-dragging" as being a swing technique where one wants to reach impact with forward shaft lean and where one does not want the clubshaft to even reach a straight-line-relationsahip with respect to the lead arm in the early followthrough. The "feel" is of a restricted release of PA#2 so that the club is "held-off" through impact.
In a DH-hand release action, PA#2 is released fully and at impact there will be no/little forward shaft lean with significant forward shaft lean only being present if the lead wrist is overtly bowed at impact (eg. Collin Morikawa's swing action). Also, the club is not "held-off" through impact and it is fully released, but the club does not bypass the lead arm (from an angular rotational perspective) between P7 => P7.2+ because the lead arm's forward momentum matches the forward momentum of the clubshaft (from an angular rotational perspective). If the lead wrist is bowed at impact, it will become less bowed in the early followthrough because there is no conscious intention to "hold-off" the release of the club.
It is of no value to think of the intact LFFW concept to differentiate between "handle-dragging" and a DH-hand release action because both techniques can be performed with the bowed lead wrist technique or with a very strong lead hand grip technique, and they both do not involve use of the intact LFFW technique.
Jeff.
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Post by dubiousgolfer on Aug 4, 2023 17:50:09 GMT -5
I have a simplistic way of thinking of "handle-dragging" as being a swing technique where one wants to reach impact with forward shaft lean and where one does not want the clubshaft to even reach a straight-line-relationsahip with respect to the lead arm in the early followthrough. The "feel" is of a restricted release of PA#2 so that the club is "held-off" through impact. In a DH-hand release action, PA#2 is released fully and at impact there will be no/little forward shaft lean with significant forward shaft lean only being present if the lead wrist is overtly bowed at impact (eg. Collin Morikawa's swing action). Also, the club is not "held-off" through impact and it is fully released, but the club does not bypass the lead arm (from an angular rotational perspective) between P7 => P7.2+ because the lead arm's forward momentum matches the forward momentum of the clubshaft (from an angular rotational perspective). If the lead wrist is bowed at impact, it will become less bowed in the early followthrough because there is no conscious intention to "hold-off" the release of the club. Jeff. Is Tiger Wood's 'stinger' a type of "handle-dragging"? Although not exactly a square face-on view in the 1st video , it looks like he has forward shaft bend approaching impact, a small amount of backward shaft bend when the ball/turf is struck from P7-P7.2 , then a somewhat larger forward shaft bend from P7.2 - P7.4. He seems to be applying a negative hand couple post impact (ie. forward shaft bend) from P7.2-P7.4 and doesn't that suggest the club is being "held-off"? But he seems to have an intact GFLW/LAFW from P7-P7.4. DG
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Aug 4, 2023 17:59:43 GMT -5
I have a simplistic way of thinking of "handle-dragging" as being a swing technique where one wants to reach impact with forward shaft lean and where one does not want the clubshaft to even reach a straight-line-relationsahip with respect to the lead arm in the early followthrough. The "feel" is of a restricted release of PA#2 so that the club is "held-off" through impact. In a DH-hand release action, PA#2 is released fully and at impact there will be no/little forward shaft lean with significant forward shaft lean only being present if the lead wrist is overtly bowed at impact (eg. Collin Morikawa's swing action). Also, the club is not "held-off" through impact and it is fully released, but the club does not bypass the lead arm (from an angular rotational perspective) between P7 => P7.2+ because the lead arm's forward momentum matches the forward momentum of the clubshaft (from an angular rotational perspective). If the lead wrist is bowed at impact, it will become less bowed in the early followthrough because there is no conscious intention to "hold-off" the release of the club. Jeff. Is Tiger Wood's 'stinger' a type of "handle-dragging"? Although not exactly a square face-on view in the 1st video , it looks like he has forward shaft bend approaching impact, a small amount of backward shaft bend when the ball/turf is struck from P7-P7.2 , then a somewhat larger forward shaft bend from P7.2 - P7.4. He seems to be applying a negative hand couple post impact (ie. forward shaft bend) from P7.2-P7.4 and doesn't that suggest the club is being "held-off"? But he seems to have an intact GLFW/LAFW from P7-P7.4. DG I originally claimed that TW's "stinger shot" was a "handle-dragging" technique, but I was wrong. He obviously intends to have a lot of forward shaft lean at impact, but he seems to release his club fully with no evidence that he is "holding off" the release. His trail wrist does not remain extended for a prolonged period post-impact so I suspect that he does not necessarily have a negative hand couple phenomenon happening post-impact. Jeff.
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