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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 16, 2011 18:50:07 GMT -5
Here is a simple experiment for Natep, and other interested forum members, about maintaining a FLW to P7.5 or beyond - without a golf ball. First look at this video of SMK performing a lead arm only swing. Here are capture images of his followthrough (remember that he is a lefty) Image 1 is at P7.4, image 2 is at P7.8 and image 3 is beyond P8. Note that he maintains an intact LAFW/FLW to beyond P8. Did you realize that he can maintain a FLW to beyond the P8 position - despite hitting a drive >250 yards? I want you to study his swing action so you can mimic his swing action without a ball. Start with a short iron (eg. 9 iron) because it is easier to control. I want you to perform a TGM swingers action with your left arm alone, or with both arms. If you also use your right arm, make sure that you do not apply any swing-hitting action with your right arm and avoid throwing your clubhead at the ball position (imaginary ball located just behind low point). As a TGM swinger, you can use a pivot-induced release of PA#4 that catapults your left arm forward through the impact zone or you can use the Leslie King methodology of pulling your left arm away from your chest wall using your left shoulder girdle muscles. Use whatever technique allows you to generate the fastest speed of motion of the FLW between P7 and P8. Swing through impact and make sure that you concentrate all your attention on your FLW and try to accelerate your FLW as fast as possible from P7 to P8. Don't worry about what is happening to your clubhead. Simply make sure that your FLW is accelerating very fast between P7 and P8. The best mental image that I can suggest is the idea of throwing a frisbee back-handed, and make sure that your left hand is moving increasingly fast as it bypasses the left thigh on the way to your full finish. Keep your mental attention on the back of your FLW and make sure that it never bends and that the FLW always remains ahead of the clubhead to at least P7.5, but preferably P8. Can you achieve that goal? If you can - please video your successful intact LAFW/FLW swing action with a Casio camera at 200-300fps, and please post your video in this thread. I am not a good golfer, and even when using the less efficient Leslie King method of releasing PA#4, I can achieve a FLW, and prevent the clubhead bypassing the FLW, to at least P7.5 - without a golf ball being present to slow the clubhead. I cannot prove my assertion because I do not have a CASIO camera to record my achievement. However, I don't think that it is very difficult, and I expect that more athletic forum members can more easily achieve this goal. Please report on your experiences with this experiment. CASIO videos will be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Jeff.
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Post by natep on Dec 16, 2011 21:48:43 GMT -5
First of all, those pictures are too blurry too see anything relevant to this discussion, like whether or not he has a FLW and for how long. But anyway, what is the point of this proposed experiment? To see if its possible to swing with a FLW thru impact? Of course it's possible! Thats not my point at all. I do think its terrible advice to just focus on keeping a FLW and dont worry about the clubhead like you recommended above. My point is that you can throw the clubhead into the ball without bending the left wrist immediately after impact because the collision slows down the overtaking rate. And I believe that you can throw the clubhead faster than you can pull it or push it.
I've already done my own experiment. I was hitting drivers straight over (at) the camera and I was taking full, hard practice swings in between balls. There was a big difference in when the left wrist bent (between practice swings and real shots), but the intent was exactly the same. So you might've looked at my swing (with a ball) and said "look, his wrist still looks flat at P7.3 so he must be trying to swing with an intact LAFW". But you would be hugely mistaken because I was trying to throw the clubhead or "flick" it and you cant determine my intent by watching videos or looking at photos.
Intentions are huge in golf. If you swing with the intention of keeping the left wrist flat throughout the swing and beyond impact you arent going to hit the ball very far IMO, not nearly as far as you're capable of. But if thats what you want then go for it.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 17, 2011 2:13:43 GMT -5
Natep,
You wrote-: "First of all, those pictures are too blurry too see anything relevant to this discussion, like whether or not he has a FLW and for how long."
Stunning!
I am amazed that you cannot see that the left wrist must be flat because the clubshaft has not passed the left arm (from a rotational perspective).
You also wrote-: "If you swing with the intention of keeping the left wrist flat throughout the swing and beyond impact you arent going to hit the ball very far IMO, not nearly as far as you're capable of."
That's an "a priori" opinion that hasn't been tested. You haven't even tried to see whether that is true!
If SMK can drive a ball 250+ yards with a single lead arm-only swing using the idea of keeping a FLW to P7.5+, why can't you do better with two arms?
You also wrote-: "And I believe that you can throw the clubhead faster than you can pull it or push it."
How do you know that? Is it based on a pre-formed bias or based on experimental testing?
Hmm! And you label me as being close-minded!
Jeff.
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Post by natep on Dec 17, 2011 2:56:29 GMT -5
You wrote: "Stunning! I am amazed that you cannot see that the left wrist must be flat because the clubshaft has not passed the left arm (from a rotational perspective)." First, when you only swing with one arm like that the arm can come way off of the body, to an extent that cant happen with two hands on the club. So whatever does or doesnt happen in his one armed swing is irrelevent IMO as far as this discussion is concerned. Most of us arent swinging with one arm. You wrote "That's an "a priori" opinion that hasn't been tested. You haven't even tried to see whether that is true! If SMK can drive a ball 250+ yards with a single lead arm-only swing using the idea of keeping a FLW to P7.5+, why can't you do better with two arms?" Jeff, I've been playing golf since I was 8 years old, and its been a huge part of my life since then. I'm 32 now. Besides a 6-7 year period in my early 20's, I have hit balls damn near every day since I was 8. I have tried EVERYTHING numerous times. Countless times. And then went back and tried it again just to make sure. So of course I have tried FLW/LAFW. I can easily hit it 250 with a FLW, but thats not near as far as I can hit it without worrying about the left wrist and throwing/free-wheeling the clubhead. And you cant look at my swing and tell what my intentions were (throwing) based on a still photo or video. Here's Tapio's measurements on clubhead speed and deceleration at impact. You really think impact doesnt matter and the overtaking rate would be the same with no ball? Also, note how difference in acceleration of the clubhead vs. the hands mph (green line). Before impact they are separating rapidly, but impact slows them both down and they kind of "coast" together.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 17, 2011 12:08:25 GMT -5
Natep, You wrote-: "First, when you only swing with one arm like that the arm can come way off of the body, to an extent that cant happen with two hands on the club" Actually if you check Hogan's left arm position in this followthrough sequence and his body position - there is very little difference at P8+ compared to SMK. Hogan could achieve that same position with his right hand on the club because he has great flexibility and he gets his right right shoulder far enough forward by P8+. You also wrote-: "You really think impact doesnt matter and the overtaking rate would be the same with no ball?" I never infeered that impact would not slow down the clubhead, I was actually dealing with the opposite problem - the absence of the ball would allow the clubhead to more easily bypass the FLW, which is why I stated that one must really accelerate the FLW more between P7 and P8. You also wrote-: "So of course I have tried FLW/LAFW. I can easily hit it 250 with a FLW, but thats not near as far as I can hit it without worrying about the left wrist and throwing/free-wheeling the clubhead." However, you didn't state whether you tried to accelerate the FLW between P7 and P8 when you tried to play with a FLW/LAFW. That's the modification that I am suggesting that you may not have tried. I recently received an e-mail message from a scratch golfer who has increased his clubhead speed by 20mph by using that approach. I am not saying it will work for you. You may do better with the MA right arm throw action swing. I am only asking whether you have tried that modification of accelerating the FLW between P7 and P7.5+? Jeff.
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Post by natep on Dec 17, 2011 12:16:06 GMT -5
Yes, I have tried it. For me, its slower than "throwing". But even when throwing I like to try and feel that the hands are accelerating thru impact and I get better results that way.
I find that all techniques perform acceptably up to about 180 yards out. I dont play any hybrids, and play 1-sw. When I use any FLW thru impact or handle dragging technique, its as if my 4-1 irons become irrelevent because I cant hit any of them over 200 yards. I usually hit my 5-iron 200, and can hit the 1-iron up to 240. But handle dragging I lose the speed to be able to hit the long irons. The difference is also apparent obviously in 3wood and driver.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 17, 2011 13:10:03 GMT -5
Natep,
Hopefully, you clearly understand the difference between a handle-dragging technique using a FLW and my suggested swing technique using an intact LAFW where one must never handle-drag, and where one must fling the FLW forward through impact (like throwing a frisbee back-handed - with maximum hand speed achieved well after impact). If you also tried my suggested technique, and it doesn't work as well as your "throwing" technique that's OK. What bothers me about a clubhead throwing technique is that is requires perfect timing to square the clubface at impact, while my LAFW swinging technique is designed to maintain a square clubface (relative to the target) all the way through the immediate impact zone from P6.9 to P7.2.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 17, 2011 13:16:18 GMT -5
To all, I have noted that the shoulders are traveling faster after impact in Tapio's graphs, but the hands slow down after impact. Why? Jeff.
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Post by natep on Dec 17, 2011 13:24:45 GMT -5
Jeff,
You'd have to ask Tapio. I think he said before that in that graphs, the hands and clubhead are measured in mph while the shoulders and hips are measured in degrees of rotation per second (?). Also ,he has said in the past that they measure each shoulder joint independently of the other, so I'm not sure what is even being desribed as "shoulder rotation" above.
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Post by tomdavis76 on Dec 18, 2011 13:07:38 GMT -5
Jeff,
The increasing moment of inertia as the club and arms extend is the explanation for why the hands start slowing before impact. Presumably they would continue slowing after impact as the arms fully extended. Left shoulder retraction and right shoulder protraction through the release causes the shoulder acceleration, as I remember. I think it was in one of the videos that were at Gotham and discussed in a thread at 3jack.
Tom
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 18, 2011 13:27:28 GMT -5
Tom,
I can understand the idea of increasing resistance to forward motion as the club/left arm becomes more extended in the late downswing, but that doesn't mean that a golfer cannot use additional active force to ensure that he maintains forward speed of the intact LAFW/FLW from P6.5 to P7.5+
Jeff.
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Post by natep on Dec 18, 2011 13:48:33 GMT -5
It's probably a good intention to have, but apparently it isn't happening in reality. (Based on Tapio's findings)
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Dec 18, 2011 14:09:50 GMT -5
Natep,
You wrote-: "It's probably a good intention to have, but apparently it isn't happening in reality. (Based on Tapio's findings)."
There are two ways to interpret Tapio's hand speed graphs.
1) They are truly reflective of the reality of all skilled golfers - irrespective of whether the golfer intends, or doesn't intend, to continue to actively accelerate his FLW from P7 to P7.5+.
or
2) He hasn't measured golfers who have the ability to actively accelerate their FLW through impact from P7 to P7.5 in such a way that they can easily maintain a FLW to P7.5+ (like SMK).
Why have you chosen to believe in 1) rather than 2)?
Jeff.
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Post by natep on Dec 18, 2011 14:44:50 GMT -5
Because I got to demo the software and look at several different peoples swings and their corresponding graphs. All of the evidence points to option #1 being true.
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Post by gmbtempe on Dec 18, 2011 16:30:12 GMT -5
Natep, You wrote-: "It's probably a good intention to have, but apparently it isn't happening in reality. (Based on Tapio's findings)." There are two ways to interpret Tapio's hand speed graphs. 1) They are truly reflective of the reality of all skilled golfers - irrespective of whether the golfer intends, or doesn't intend, to continue to actively accelerate his FLW from P7 to P7.5+. or 2) He hasn't measured golfers who have the ability to actively accelerate their FLW through impact from P7 to P7.5 in such a way that they can easily maintain a FLW to P7.5+ (like SMK). Why have you chosen to believe in 1) rather than 2)? Jeff. Do you think that #2 is is a very rare quality? Why would Tapio have a hard time coming across #2?
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