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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 5, 2012 18:43:05 GMT -5
Here was a question posted in BM's fourm. "@bm, Don't you think the strength of the player is a factor here? If a player is used to using a tiny #3 and he's releasing mainly #2 or using mainly velocity power, he is going to max out his clubhead speed with this, lets say 100mph. If he suddenly changes his #3, makes it as big as possible, and changes his release to a method more consistent with a big #3 which is releasing #3 thru roll or rotational power, don't you think he will find a hard time releasing it because his strength is not yet up to it? So, research will say the bigger #3 will slow down his clubhead speed, say to 90mph. HOWEVER, the stronger he gets, the more his clubhead speed increases in direct proportion...so he will eventually surpass the 100mph mark with even potential to increase it further...unlike a tiny #3 where increase in strength will not increase clubhead speed proportionately, so you are stuck to 100mph. #3 works like a gear you know...when you shift to a higher gear (bigger #3), your engine gotta be stronger, correct? But the stronger it gets the more max speed you can achieve. When you shift to a lower gear (smaller #3), your max speed has a limit that is slower...same thing I described above... So IMO maybe the research is being unfair to a bigger #3?...lol" BM responded as follows-: "#1. Since the straightening right wrist would be #5, and Gamma would be #6, where does that leave #3? #2. Not a big proponent of a big #3 per se. Only really use it when #3 roll is too strong." He believes that a straightening right wrist is a power accumulator - which he labels PA#5. That's BS because it makes no sense to straighten the right wrist pre-impact - because one needs an AFLW at impact. Also, one shouldn't breakdown the FLW between P7 and P7.2 so it is ridiculous to think of getting more power via a straightening right wrist. The right wrist can straighten if it doesn't interfere with the FLW which can rotate out of the way due to a roller release action, which is inadvisable because it diminishes the time period where the clubface is square to the target through impact. Here is David Toms' hand release action through impact. He maintains a bent right wrist through impact, and he doesn't use a roller hand release action. BM should take lessons from his famous student. He refers to gamma as PA#6. Again, I know of no time period during the downswing when one torques the club (other than during the release of PA#3 - if one decreases the magnitude of the accumulator #3 angle to near-zero). I think that the questioner and BM don't understand that the amount of PA#3 used simply depends on the degree of counterclockwise roll of the left forearm between P6 and P7 and it is only dependent on grip strength. The amount of PA#3 is measured in degrees of rotation, and not the total amount of clubhead travel, because that is affected by the accumulator #3 angle. Most of the questioner's multifaceted question about the relationship between PA#3 and clubhead speed and strength is incomprehensible. Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 5, 2012 22:54:34 GMT -5
GolfPro - you asked-: "In your opinion, do you think left forearm rotation initiates left hand rotation?"
What part of the downswing are you specifically asking about?
In general, I think that most pro golfers (who use a neutral left hand grip) bring their intact LAFW down the swingplane between P4 and P6 with the back of their GFLW parallel to the inclined plane. Then, they have to rotate the intact LAFW into impact using three biomechanical movements - i) continued rotation of the upper torso and shoulder sockets; ii) external rotation of the left humerus and iii) supination of the left forearm. The power to supinate the left forearm can be active (using left forearm muscle power) or passive; and it is also secondary to the right forearm paddlewheeling action (the degree depending on how actively the right arm straightens between P6 and P7 thereby applying push-pressure at PP#1).
I don't believe that left forearm supination initiates the downswing at P4 if the clubshaft is already on-plane - because it would throw the clubshaft over-the-plane. However, if a golfer employs a pronatory left forearm motion at the end of his backswing that swivels the clubshaft off the inclined plane of the backswing action to a parallel-to-the-ground alignment, then that swivel action must be reversed at the start of the downswing in order to get the clubshaft back onto the inclined plane, and that swivel motion will involve a left forearm supinatory motion.
Jeff.
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Post by golfpro on Jun 6, 2012 15:41:10 GMT -5
GolfPro - you asked-: "In your opinion, do you think left forearm rotation initiates left hand rotation?" What part of the downswing are you specifically asking about? Jeff. The part where the left hand is rotated and the left arm is supinated. I'm not talking about transition, I'm talking about a player that rotates the left hand and forearm when delivering the club head to the ball, like Garcia. Which of these two movements initiates the other? Is Sergio at P5.5 beginning the supination of his left forearm and the left hand then rotates because of the left arm rotation or does he begin to rotate his left hand and the left forearm supinates because of the hand rotation? Which is it in your opinion? When you say at the end of the backswing if the clubshaft swivels off the inclined plane (laying the club off??) then that swivel action must be reversed at the start of the downswing to get the shaft back onto the inclined plane. Why can't a shaft that is laid off be rotated with hand/arm rotation and pivot later in the downswing? How do you control spin, trajectory, and ball flight curvature? How do you deliver the club head with the correct path and face angle to get the desired D-Plane? What is it that you do to control the shaft and clubface to hit different shot shapes? Am I to believe it's all about rotating the intact LAFW into impact by the rotation of the upper torso and shoulder sockets and ER of the left humerus and supination of the left forearm? Not trying to be difficult Jeff, I'm just reading very basic/general observable swing biomechanics. The human body is pliable and can move in many different ways, some of which can be quite subtle and imperceptible to the eye. Moves that don't show up in vids or pics, especially out of focus ones. How else can players hit 4, 8, 12 yard draws/fades with different trajectories. Throw in cross winds and uneven lies. The biomechanics you're talking about don't seem to describe that kind of precision. What IN SWING biomechanics are being made that differentiate between these precision shots? Just curious what your thoughts are?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 7, 2012 23:52:07 GMT -5
GolfPro,
My interspersed replies are in italics
Jeff.
The part where the left hand is rotated and the left arm is supinated. I'm not talking about transition, I'm talking about a player that rotates the left hand and forearm when delivering the club head to the ball, like Garcia. Which of these two movements initiates the other? Is Sergio at P5.5 beginning the supination of his left forearm and the left hand then rotates because of the left arm rotation or does he begin to rotate his left hand and the left forearm supinates because of the hand rotation? Which is it in your opinion?
I think that starting at at P5.5, that any rotation of the left hand between P5.5 and P6.5 is primarily due to torso rotation +/- external rotation of the left humerus. Left forearm supination mainly occurs between P6.5 and P7. Left forearm supination can be active or passive.
When you say at the end of the backswing if the clubshaft swivels off the inclined plane (laying the club off??) then that swivel action must be reversed at the start of the downswing to get the shaft back onto the inclined plane. Why can't a shaft that is laid off be rotated with hand/arm rotation and pivot later in the downswing?
Simply because the intact LAFW should optimally come down the inclined with the back of the GFLW parallel to the inclined plane. If one delayed the rotary motion of the LAFW until P6 then one could not easily rotate the clubshaft into impact on-plane.
How do you control spin, trajectory, and ball flight curvature? How do you deliver the club head with the correct path and face angle to get the desired D-Plane? What is it that you do to control the shaft and clubface to hit different shot shapes? Am I to believe it's all about rotating the intact LAFW into impact by the rotation of the upper torso and shoulder sockets and ER of the left humerus and supination.
The motion of the intact LAFW in space during the downswing is not only affected by rotary movements occurring at the level of the torso (shoulder sockets), humerus and left forearm. There are many other non-rotary motions involving the left arm (varying degrees of left humeral shaft motion in the plane of left arm flexion-extension and left arm abduction-adduction). It is these non-rotary motions that allow a golfer to change the clubhead swingpath.
Jeff.
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Post by golfpro on Jun 8, 2012 1:54:02 GMT -5
GolfPro, My interspersed replies are in italics Jeff. The part where the left hand is rotated and the left arm is supinated. I'm not talking about transition, I'm talking about a player that rotates the left hand and forearm when delivering the club head to the ball, like Garcia. Which of these two movements initiates the other? Is Sergio at P5.5 beginning the supination of his left forearm and the left hand then rotates because of the left arm rotation or does he begin to rotate his left hand and the left forearm supinates because of the hand rotation? Which is it in your opinion? I think that starting at at P5.5, that any rotation of the left hand between P5.5 and P6.5 is primarily due to torso rotation +/- external rotation of the left humerus. Left forearm supination mainly occurs between P6.5 and P7. Left forearm supination can be active or passive. When you say at the end of the backswing if the clubshaft swivels off the inclined plane (laying the club off??) then that swivel action must be reversed at the start of the downswing to get the shaft back onto the inclined plane. Why can't a shaft that is laid off be rotated with hand/arm rotation and pivot later in the downswing? Simply because the intact LAFW should optimally come down the inclined with the back of the GFLW parallel to the inclined plane. If one delayed the rotary motion of the LAFW until P6 then one could not easily rotate the clubshaft into impact on-plane. How do you control spin, trajectory, and ball flight curvature? How do you deliver the club head with the correct path and face angle to get the desired D-Plane? What is it that you do to control the shaft and clubface to hit different shot shapes? Am I to believe it's all about rotating the intact LAFW into impact by the rotation of the upper torso and shoulder sockets and ER of the left humerus and supination. The motion of the intact LAFW in space during the downswing is not only affected by rotary movements occurring at the level of the torso (shoulder sockets), humerus and left forearm. There are many other non-rotary motions involving the left arm (varying degrees of left humeral shaft motion in the plane of left arm flexion-extension and left arm abduction-adduction). It is these non-rotary motions that allow a golfer to change the clubhead swingpath. Jeff. Jeff, thanks for taking the time to reply.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 8, 2012 14:47:33 GMT -5
See this BM thread page. www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/17179-hinge-action-rate-closure-what-you-should-do-clubface-p9-pic-20.htmlBM wrote in response to a question about right wrist straightening (which BM labels PA#5). "Ok.... Have you ever look ed some good 6DoF 3d? You hate right wrist straightening? YOU CAN'T PLAY A LICK WITHOUT IT. Period." BM seemingly states that one cannot play golf well without right wrist straightening through impact. So, should one conclude that Tommy Gainey and Mike Bennett and Charlie Hoffmann and Lee Trevino and cannot play well because they maintain a bent right wrist through the immediate impact zone. Tommy Gainey Mike Bennett Charlie Hoffmann Lee Trevino How does BM get away with these outrageously one-sided claims? Jeff.
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Post by Golfpro on Jun 8, 2012 23:22:37 GMT -5
BM seemingly states that one cannot play golf well without right wrist straightening through impact.Jeff, he's not advocating that at all. You need to read the thread Brian did on ENSO. "NEW BLOCKBISTER 20 minute VIDEO - Preliminary ENSO Findings" You can find it pretty quick if you click on his name and then click on his "Find latest started threads." I think it's on page two. It will clear things up for you about how he feels about right wrist straightening. It is a thread worth reading. The thread above is one should read from beginning to end also.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 8, 2012 23:31:15 GMT -5
GolfPro,
Feel free to explain what BM is advocating re: right wrist straightening. I didn't discover the answer when reading that 10-page thread.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 9, 2012 9:51:38 GMT -5
GolfPro recommended the following BM video. vimeo.com/39018293#In that video, BM claims that he got an extra 3mph using a swing action where he allows the right wrist to straighten (106mph) versus a square-to-square method (103mph). So, what does that prove? BM claims that if one attempted to keep the clubface square to the clubhead arc after impact, that it would decrease clubhead speed. That may apply to him, but it doesn't necessarily apply to other good golfers. Both Jamie Sadlowski and Dominic Mazza hit >400 yard drives using the square-to-square swing action, and they also don't allow the left wrist to breakdown between P7 and P7.5. Here is Dominic Mazza I don't mind GolfPro being a BM-groupie or a BM-apologist, but I would expect him to offer an explanation to defend his point-of-view. Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Jun 9, 2012 13:12:28 GMT -5
Is the bent right wrist at impact a "cause" or an "effect" in relation to the golf swing? Meaning is one holding the bent right wrist, or does it just happen "in the motion" of a golf swing?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 9, 2012 15:49:46 GMT -5
Greg,
I think that "holding the right wrist bend" is integral to the technical action of a hitter or swing-hitter or right arm swinger. In a left arm swinger, it reflects the swing style adopted and whether the golfer is running-out-of-right arm (or not).
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 9, 2012 18:10:01 GMT -5
GolfPro,
You wrote-: "You misspoke about what BM said and I pointed it out to you. ---- "If you are going to openly take the time to start threads to adamantly criticize anyone's remarks, at least do enough homework to be factual."
You have not demonstrated that I have not been factually correct. You have only made a wild (evidence-unsupported) allegation.
You also wrote-: "It's obvious from your comment you haven't been paying close attention to what BM has been researching this past year. Trackman, 3D Capture, and ENSO truths are the best money can buy these days. Get busy interpreting the data."
You have not presented any evidence that I have not been studying/interpreting the data about Trackman, ENSO and 3D capture machines that are posted in BM's golf forum. You also have not shown that there is any evidence that knowledge of those data will help a golfer improve his golf swing mechanics/biomechanics.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 9, 2012 22:46:50 GMT -5
GolfPro,
You wrote-: "BM has written often about his beliefs on how, why and when the right hand straightens. Even made a video discussing it. Now, go to his site and study the many threads and get the overall facts about his findings and stop taking snippets of posts in an effort to try and discredit his findings he's made utilizing cutting edge technology."
You are simply diverting attention from the fact that you have not provided any "evidence". You may harbor an opinion that I am misrepresenting BM, but you still have not provided any "evidence".
You also wrote-: "If anyone thinks that 240 fps video with a 1/2000 shutter speed is enough to see what the head of a golf club is doing through impact is just plain fooling themselves. The data that is produced by ENSO at 700hz is revealing things that observing video just can't do. Ball flight never lies? Trackman says it can. Supination, Pronation, PF, DF, UD, RD, IR, ER, TA? Great, 3D allows us to figure out what is more important to focus our attention on and what will help a golfer best utilize their bodies and abilities."
You are free to harbor those personal opinions, but you have provided ZERO evidence to support your beliefs. Beliefs are not equivalent to facts. You may believe that 3D is allowing us (and I presume that you mean the BM-groupie fraternity by the term "us") to determine what is more important, but I think that's a BS claim. Any data provided by more sophisticated machines still needs to be interpreted in a way that is consistent with sound golf biomechanics, and I am not seeing that happen in the BM forum.
You wrote-: "Evidence that this technology is going to improve someone's game? Are you kidding? If you cannot see how this data is going to help teachers improve their instruction and in turn help golfers get better, then you need to reevaluate your priorities."
Don't lecture me without providing evidentiary proof. I have yet to see any solid evidence that more detailed data from hi-tech machines is helping us improve a golfer's swing biomechanics. I think that you need to re-evaluate your priorities and question yourself as to why you are participating in this golf forum, which is mainly focused on serious discussions/debates relating to the world of sound golf swing biomechanics/mechanics.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 10, 2012 7:12:33 GMT -5
GolfPro,
I am delighted to note that you have shown your true colors.
I sensed from the beginning that you were not going to be capable of debating golf swing issues re: golf swing biomechanics/mechanics in a serious manner, and that you were only going to pontificate in a personally biased manner (ala cwdlaw223).
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 10, 2012 16:38:50 GMT -5
GolfPro,
If that represents your opinion, then why did you start posting questions in this golf forum as a guest?
I think that you should quit posting in this forum as soon as possible. I will personally ignore your posts from now on - considering the nature of your expressed personal opinions.
Jeff.
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