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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 18, 2012 8:33:17 GMT -5
Dextrous,
You wrote-: "I also feel you ARE trying to convince people that your beliefs are factual and true."
Of course! I am definitely trying to convince any interested forum members/guests that BM is wrong is about many issues re: golf swing mechanics/biomechanics, and I am also trying to demonstrate that KM/Jeffy and many other golf instructors/commentators are also wrong about many issues re: golf swing mechanics/biomechanics. I simply present my reasoning and I let forum members/guests make up their own mind about the validity of my critical opinions. I also obviously believe that my crtiical opinions are more likely to be "factual and true" - otherwise I wouldn't bother to express them.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 19, 2012 8:32:32 GMT -5
Dextrous wrote that all pros straighten their right wrist through impact. That claim is absolute nonsense! First of all, that photo showing right wrist straightening at the P8+ position is more likely in golfers who use a full-roll hand release action. However, the timing of the right wrist straightening is mainly post-impact (and not pre-impact) in golfers who use a a full-roll hand release action - and right wrist straightening therefore cannot be considered to be a power accumulator that increases clubhead speed pre-impact. Also, if the right wrist straightens between P7 and P7.5 without bending the FLW, how can it be considered to be an active power accumulator? Secondly, there are many professional golfers who use a no-roll hand release action, and they often maintain a significantly bent right wrist to the P7.5+ position. Charley Hoffmann Tommy Gainey
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 19, 2012 8:47:38 GMT -5
Dextrous wrote-: "I guess I wasn't clueless about your intentions after all. lol"
I think that he is clueless because he is seemingly unaware that I have repeatedly stated on many occasions what's my intentions for posting in this golf forum - and it is obviously to juxtapose my thinking re: golf swing mechanics/biomechanics against contrary thinking expressed by other golf instructors/theorists (eg. BM and Jeffy). You don't have to be a rocket scientist to perceive that obvious fact.
If he continues to use "lol" insults, he will soon be banned from this golf forum. He is free to post any intellectual opinion re: golf swing mechanics/biomechanics, but if I increasingly perceive that he is not presenting serious counterarguments, but that he is merely attacking me, then he will definitely be banned from posting in this forum.
Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Jun 19, 2012 11:52:16 GMT -5
Agreed... There are few absolutes in the golf swing. Different strokes for different folks question is what works best for what. yuuuup Thats what I find at odds with guys who are devout to one method, it makes no sense.
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Post by gmbtempe on Jun 19, 2012 15:14:07 GMT -5
yuuuup Thats what I find at odds with guys who are devout to one method, it makes no sense. Method teachers find they can get the best results working with a large number of average players. They always run the risk of players not being able to adapt to the method, but, most average players need a lot of work and a method like S&T, for example, can get them hitting the ball better in the shortest time possible. I don't like methods either, because they don't really deal well with better players who just need small adjustments to get back on track with their already talented specialized swings. Sure, give me a 25 handicapper with a horrible flip and SnT is a perfect recipe. I actually hate the term SnT, having been around the system for a while its a "label" that just does a disservice to what they are actually trying to accomplish.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 19, 2012 17:32:06 GMT -5
Dextrous,
You wrote-: "Both Hoffmann in pic 3 and Gainey in pic 4 have straight right wrists."
I disagree! I think that they still have a minimal amount of right wrist dorsiflexion in those images. What is more critical is the amount of right wrist straightening at P7.5 (end of the followthrough - when both arms are straight) and both golfers have significant right wrist dorsiflexion at P7.5.
What's the relevance of "right wrist straightening" after impact anyway - if the left wrist remains flat?
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 20, 2012 7:28:07 GMT -5
Dextrous - You have still not answered my question-: "What's the relevance of "right wrist straightening" after impact anyway - if the left wrist remains flat?"
It is obvious to me that the right wrist will passively straighten after impact (or after P7.5) when the right arm has to stretch across the torso in order for the right hand to to reach a location that is on the opposite side (left side) of the torso. The timing of right wrist straightening after impact in a swinger is significantly affected by the degree that the golfer runs-out-of-right arm, and TGM teaching only mandates that the right wrist be bent at impact in order to ensure that the golfer has an AFLW. TGM teaching does not state that the right wrist should not straighten during the followthrough phase of the swing in a swinger.
By the way, TGM defines the end of the followthrough as the time point when both arms are fully straight - because that is when the power accumulators are fully unloaded. That usually occurs at roughly P7.5. TGM defines the phase of the swing after the followthrough phase as the finish phase of the swing. You are free to define the "followthrough" in any way that you want, but it is important to understand how TGMers (like me) define the followthrough if you want to understand our perspective. Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Jun 20, 2012 11:44:26 GMT -5
Sure, give me a 25 handicapper with a horrible flip and SnT is a perfect recipe. I actually hate the term SnT, having been around the system for a while its a "label" that just does a disservice to what they are actually trying to accomplish. Yes, S&T gets a bad rap often, sometimes for the wrong reasons. Doesn't have to be a 25 handicaper with a horrible flip, there are many, many 5, 10, 15 handicapers with the same problem. A lot of golfers with many problems who need a lot of help. Great night down here in Miami!!!! Just got home from some good times!!! ;D What I have found is on smaller shots where I limit the pivot or zero it out I do not dump, IMO, thats what SnT is doing for the struggling golfer. This is why you see those before and after photo's that looks so great. Also I am sure contact does improve for those players. I like their stuff, esecially as it relates to the head, shoulders, clubhshaft and sweetspot.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 20, 2012 15:18:12 GMT -5
Dextrous,
Seeing that I don't know what's your true agenda in starting to post in this forum, and not being entirely convinced that you are only here to post serious personal opinions regarding golf swing mechanics/biomechanics that can lead to an interesting intellectual debate, it is correct to assume that I "don't give a damn one way or the other" if you decide not to post here anymore.
I am only interested in reading other forum members' posts, when they openly manifest a marked disagreement with my opinions - if they provide a detailed explanatory contrary opinion that I can dissect and analyze. I am not in the slight bit interested in being "told" that I am wrong if the forum member cannot present a detailed post that thoroughly explains why they believe that I am wrong. It is not being right-or-wrong about golf swing mechanics/biomechanics issues that interests me - it is getting to critically analyse the underlying reasoning of contrary opinions that interests me, because it may turn out to be a learning experience.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 20, 2012 22:28:55 GMT -5
Dextrous wrote-: "You are talking about static positions. What is relevant is the complete motion. The golfer is going to go from a bent right wrist to a straight right wrist. That's the motion and it's relevant because, along with the right arm straightening, the club head is delivered to the back of the ball in a manner that produces the desired ball flight. All pros do this, no doubt. Unless you include the entire motion in an analysis you really aren't being realistic. It's too easy to break down the golf swing into separate static components and discuss the relevance of each one and come to some conclusion, but, the reality is you have to put them all in a sequence that produces a downswing to finish motion that takes about one second depending on swing speed."
He is totally incorrect to state that I am only talking about static positions when I examine/present capture images of different P positions. I am fully aware that these images have to be perceived to be part-and-parcel of a continuous motion and we have to theorize on the "forces" involved in this continuous motion. So, for example, it is obvious that the right wrist straightens between P6 and P8 by looking at a number of sequential capture images from P6 to P8, but we still have to posit a "force" that causes the right wrist straightening and discuss its relevance with respect to clubhead and clubface motion (path and orientation). Talking about, and engaging in debate about, this "force" that causes right wrist straightening is what interests me. I have my personal opinions, which contradict BM's claim that this "force" is an active right wrist palmar flexing force and that it can be perceived to be a power accumulator force. If any forum member (including Dextrous) wants to post an opinion he is free to do so, because I would never outlaw any personal opinion (irrespective of the quality of the logical reasoning or the quality of the "evidence"). However, I have no reason to accord any forum member's personal opinion, which simply states that my personal opinions are wrong, any serious respect - if they do not provide a solid counterargument to support their own personal opinion. This golf forum is open to the free expression of any contrary opinion re: golf swing mechanics/biomechanics - but I am personally only interested in personal opinions backed by a solid counterargument. For example, making a claim that all golfers "twist the grip" during the downswing without defining what one means by the term "twist" and without explaining how one knows that it is happening, is not a solid counterargument, and that claim will not be worthy of being treated with any respect in this golf forum.
Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jun 21, 2012 8:08:57 GMT -5
Dextrous,
You will never be banned from this forum if you express an opinion regarding golf swing mechanics/biomechanics that is totally contrary to my personal opinion. Forum members only get banned if they indulge in needless ad hominem attacks/insults against me. You can freely contradict my golf instructional opinions, and you can label them wrong-headed without worrying about being banned.
You state that I am misintrepreting your statements to make a point. That is a fair point, but you are always free to correct any misinterpretations. You can also be accused of misinterpreting posts. For example, I was not really talking about static positions in this thread when I refer to capture images at certain P time points. I am referring to sequential changes in static right wrist straightening positions, and I am therefore talking about the biomechanics of right wrist straightening.
You seemingly imply that I am TMGer who only talks in TGM terms. I think that you simply do not understand enough about my golf swing philosophy. I was banned from LBGs' gof forum because I was such a fierce critic of certain TGM beliefs, and I am definitely not a TGM literalist. Any forum member who has read my posts over an extended period of time knows that I am not a TGM literalist.
Jeff.
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