Bending the left wrist through impact

[Dariusz J]

Jeff,

Answering your questions step by step:

ad.1. Because I think we all would probably learn that you are not capable to maintain the flat lead wrist longafter impact and your swing is a presentation of the very faults faults you ridicule; you cannot cheat physics.

ad.2. Don't you see the difference between pre- and post-secret Hogan ? Granted he maintained his lead wrist still flat well in most cases (in some cases he let in flex) but he stopped to make a crucial mistake in reasoning that consciously trying to keep the clubhead square to the target line (which must involve handle-dragging procedure) prevents from hooking ! He stopped hooking exactly when he started to release unintentionally.

ad.3. Again, if there are people who believe that lead wrist should be flexed before or through impact and it is the only one correct way of releasing, do not mix me with them. I am perfectly aware of a phenomenon called Cotton's push release which more or less depicts what Hogan, DJ or Toms, etc. show.
I am wholeheartedly against treating the slap-hinge release as an error since such standpoint abuses some great golfers and theorists and is a viable method of playing golf relying on delivering properly angles at contact and just adding loft later on instead holding it. Same as crossover release relies on delivering abngles properly but changing rapidly the amount of opennes/closennes in relation to the path.

Each of the release types has its pros and cons. It is simple as that.

Cheers

[imperfectgolfer]

Dariusz - you wrote-: "ad.1. Because I think we all would probably learn that you are not capable to maintain the flat lead wrist long after impact and your swing is a presentation of the very faults faults you ridicule; you cannot cheat physics."

Again - any imperfection in my personal swing reflects my personal inadequacies as a golfer. It doesn't mean that my opinions re: optimum golf swing mechanics/biomechanics are flawed. You are mixing up "ideas re: optimum golf swing biomechanics/biomechanics" and "personal golfing skill".

You also wrote-: "Don't you see the difference between pre- and post-secret Hogan ? Granted he maintained his lead wrist still flat well in most cases (in some cases he let in flex) but he stopped to make a crucial mistake in reasoning that consciously trying to keep the clubhead square to the target line (which must involve handle-dragging procedure) prevents from hooking ! He stopped hooking exactly when he started to release unintentionally."

How can you make that claim when his FLW + clubface are both facing the target at the P7.1/7.2 position in the two photo images that I posted. How did he achieve that P7.1/7.2 position (where both his FLW and clubface face the target) biomechanically?

You also wrote-"I am perfectly aware of a phenomenon called Cotton's push release which more or less depicts what Hogan, DJ or Toms, etc. show."

Please define exactly what you mean by a "Cotton push-release" with particular emphasis on the active-or-passive motion of both the left and the right wrists, and could you please also explain why you believe that David Toms is using that type of "push-release" action. In other words, can you please describe the underlying biomechanics of a push-release action?

Jeff.

[imperfectgolfer]

Dariusz posted this video in the BM-froum thread.



Dariusz then commented-: "Perfect example of a slap-hinge release bringing great effects."

I have no doubt that perfect timing of a slap hinge release action can produce great ball flight results. However, I have repeatedly stated that it requires perfect timing of a left wrist hinging motion eg. perfect timing of the stalling of the forward motion of the left arm/hand through impact, and the perfect timing of a right wrist straightening action (? active ? passive). If one plays golf with an intact LAFW/FLW from P4 to P7.5, then one doesn't have to worry about the additional problem-issue of timing an additional biomechanical motion (a horizontal left wrist hinging motion) through the impact zone. So, what's the advantage of using a slap hinge release action in one's full golf swing?

Jeff.

[Dariusz J]

Jeff,

ad.1. That's the point -- we old pricks with our flawed bodies (especially those who picked up golf late in life as me and you) -- either won't maintain flat lead wrist long after impact or must use a forced unnatural anti-conscious procedure of handle dragging.
If such old pricks' only source how to improve their golf was your site, they would abandon golf very quickly because they would be constantly accused of flipping (erroneous TGMish presentation of slap-hinge release) instead be happy and play golf on a decent level without maintaining flat lead wrist long after separation.
Again, one cannot cheat physics.

ad.2. If you compare these 2 pics of Hogan you'll have to note that a pre-secret one keeps the in-line alignment of shaft with his lead arm unnaturally long (which also gives an illusion of keeping the face square to the target line); post-secret pic shows that he's not holding anything and letting it go fully (no handle dragging) and the clubface stays sqare to the arc unintentionally instead square to the target intentionally.
Hope I can be understood well now.

ad.3. Cotton wanted to depict the three possible scenarios of how the clubface changes its orientation in relation to the ball in the strict impact zone and, therefore, he distinguished three possibilities:
a. slap-hinge release (vertical change of orientation);
b. crossover release (horizontal change of orientation);
c. push release (no change of orientation).
All of the three can be achieved unintentionally depending on one's swing characteristics and physical capabilities. Push releasers require most, unfortunately for us, mortals -- great body turn, great pelvic motion, great extension of the upper body, good grip, etc.

Cheers

[Dariusz J]

Yes, slap hinge release requires a good timing, however, much less than e.g. crossover release -- because the loft changes are not so big comparing to openness/closennes clubface relation to the path.

However, a good stance, ball position and, first of all, good pivot will allow to bring to deliver the angles at contact correctly, especially if we perform a motion from the ground up and core out and not an armsy motion.

Cheers

[imperfectgolfer]

Dariusz - you wrote-: "If you compare these 2 pics of Hogan you'll have to note that a pre-secret one keeps the in-line alignment of shaft with his lead arm unnaturally long (which also gives an illusion of keeping the face square to the target line); post-secret pic shows that he's not holding anything and letting it go fully (no handle dragging) and the clubface stays sqare to the arc unintentionally instead square to the target intentionally. Hope I can be understood well now."

I think that I understand your position, but I disagree with it. I don't think that it is unnatural to maintain a FLW/clubface facing the target for a few more inches after impact - as seen in both of those Hogan swing actions.

Do you believe that Virtuoso's swing is unnatural in this sequence - because he still has a FLW/intact LAFW at P7.2 (see image 3)?





Do you believe that Kellie Oride has an unnatural swing action because she still has a FLW/intact LAFW at the P7.2 position in this followthrough photo.





You also wrote-: "ad.3. Cotton wanted to depict the three possible scenarios of how the clubface changes its orientation in relation to the ball in the strict impact zone and, therefore, he distinguished three possibilities:
a. slap-hinge release (vertical change of orientation);
b. crossover release (horizontal change of orientation);
c. push release (no change of orientation).

I believe that the only rational hand release action through the immediate impact zone (between P6.9 to P7.1) is a hand release action where the clubface doesn't change its orientation (either vertical or horizontal) during that time period due to left wrist motions - because timing of any added left wrist motions (whether slap-hinged or rolling) is biomechanically too complicated a technique for consistent ball-striking. That means that I can only agree on what you call a push-release technique. However, I am still waiting for you to describe the biomechanics of a push-release action in terms of the motion of the left wrist and right wrist between P6.9 and P7.2, and whether these motions are active or passive.

Jeff.

Addendum: I actually don't believe that a slap-hinge release action is purely vertical because the FLW/clubface is perpendicular to the inclined plane at impact, and if the left wrist hinges back in a horizontal flipping manner, its flipping motion (and therefore the motion of the clubface) will more likely be perpendicular to the inclined plane, and not perpendicular to the ground.

[Dariusz J]

Jeff,

Now you started to talk.

By unnatural, I mean something that must require a conscious thought preventing natural from becoming. You would need to ask Hogan if it was natural to him to drag handle. Neither you nor me can guarantee the answer.

As faf as Virtuoso's swing -- which is indeed very good -- let him say what changes has he applied to obtain the motion that is more pleasant to your eye and meeting your ideals. As far as I remeber being a visitor of this forum -- he presented his "natural" swing and then the "corrected" one that you liked better.
If I may predict something before his answer -- either he implemented a conscious thought aimed at maintaining angles longer after separation, or he implemented more macroscale changes such as e.g. obtaining better pivot or better extension and he did not need to think about his wrists.
Let's wait for his answer.

Last but not least, I as well as anyone sane must agree that an unintentional push release (Cotton terms) is the best option.
However, having said it, I am of a firm opinion that any of the two remaining release types, if unintentional, will bring better results than a push release obtained via forced handle-dragging procedure.

Cheers

[imperfectgolfer]

Dariusz,

I am happy to let Virtuoso independently respond to the issue as to whether his delayed full-roll hand release action feels unnatural or whether it has to always be consciously-contrived in very swing action, rather than becoming unconsciously ingrained as a "new" swing style.

You also wrote-: "Last but not least, I as well as anyone sane must agree that an unintentional push release (Cotton terms) is the best option."

What is unintentional about a Cotton push-release? If it is unintentional, then how does it happen in a consistent manner? Please consider my repeated request, and please explain the biomechanics of a Cotton push release action and also explain how it differs biomechanically from the non-handle-dragging hand release action I describe (where the FLW/intact LAFW is maintained from P7 to P7.2+).

Jeff.

[Dariusz J]

Jeff,

Please do not consider me as alpha and omega LOL. I can say only what I think or what I think e.g. Cotton thought but I won't guarantee I am right. Anyhow...

As said, unintentional means not requiring the conscious mind to perceive an action or to use conscious mind to prevent something from happening. Other words -- a subconscious-friendly action where there are no physical/anatomical obstacles to prevent it from happening.
Now, if we imagine a conscious though about keeping wrist angles longer it must surely affect the quality of the motion since it brings a huge timing element, for instance, if one stiffs wrists too early one can top the ball or hit it short or shank, whatever.

Cotton push release can be unintentional on condition of performing some not easy for everyone sub-parts which, IMO, are among others, great pivot without stalling, great lead side extension, correct weight shift, correct grip, etc.
What should I say more ? I am not an expert in this kind of release since I never could perform it.

Cheers

[natep]

[gmbtempe]

1 and 2 are important, 3 can be very much indivdual, though if 3 creeps to close to 2 then how do you know where the ball is going?

If that makes sense.

[imperfectgolfer]

I have decided to leave Natep's photo-post undeleted because it serves my purpose well. He is trying to show that there is a small degree of flipping in image 3, but that's very small. What is important is that the FLW/intact LAFW must exist betweeen P6.9 and P7.1, and any slight flipping after P7.1 (end of the immediate impact zone) is not important. What Virtuouso was doing differently in his delayed full-roll hand release action was ensuring that the FLW, and therefore clubface, continued to remain stable throughout the immediate impact zone - by trying to maintain a FLW/intact LAFW to P7.2-P7.3+ and that modified foollowthrough action decreases the chance of flipping during the clubhead's passage through the immediate impact zone (between P6.9-P7.1). By contrast, in his standard swing action he was a definite pro-flipper, where the flipping phenomenon happened much closer to the end of the immediate impact zone (P7.1). As Greg expressed this situation-: "one doesn't want 3 to get too close to 2" to better ensure that there is no significant chance of flipping during impact.

In other words, one doesn't want to look like this golfer post-impact.



This golfer is flipping immediately after impact. To get a square clubface at impact with so much left wrist flipping action, it would require perfect timing of a left wrist horizontal flipping motion, and I think that it is far to difficult to get perfect timing on a consistent basis. Virtuoso's hand release action is much better because as Greg states-: any 3 must not get too close to 2.

Jeff.

[imperfectgolfer]

Dariusz - you wrote-: "As said, unintentional means not requiring the conscious mind to perceive an action or to use conscious mind to prevent something from happening. Other words -- a subconscious-friendly action where there are no physical/anatomical obstacles to prevent it from happening.
Now, if we imagine a conscious though about keeping wrist angles longer it must surely affect the quality of the motion since it brings a huge timing element, for instance, if one stiffs wrists too early one can top the ball or hit it short or shank, whatever.

Cotton push release can be unintentional on condition of performing some not easy for everyone sub-parts which, IMO, are among others, great pivot without stalling, great lead side extension, correct weight shift, correct grip, etc. What should I say more ? I am not an expert in this kind of release since I never could perform it."

I have bold-highlighted the phrase you used - "prevent something from happening".

The "something" that we are referring to in our debate is flipping (bending of the FLW) and I have stated that I don't want that phenomenon to happen during the clubhead's passage through the immediate impact zone (between P6.9-P7.1). I presume that it doesn't happen in Cotton's push release action, but you don't state how one should avoid it from happening. The best piece of advice that you can offer is to state "if we imagine a conscious though about keeping wrist angles longer it must surely affect the quality of the motion since it brings a huge timing element". That means that you think my described hand release action, which is a drive-hold hand release action, is some type of conscious action where a golfer tries to hold the wrist angles longer. That's a total misperpection of reality.

There are three types of DH-release action - a swinger's, a swing-hitter's and a hitter's.

I will only describe a swinger's DH-release action, and I will describe how it doesn't involve any handle-dragging action and I will explain why it also doesn't involve any push action (which is the word you use when you call my swinger's DH-release action equivalent to a push release action).

I believe that a left arm swinger's action works according to the principles of a driven double pendulum swing action.

Here is an animated gif produced by David Tutelman showing a driven double pendulum action.



Note that there is a central fulcrum point - where the central torque generator exists and that central torque generator causes the central arm (left arm in a swinger's action) to rotate around the fulcrum. The central torque generator causes the central arm to move at a certain speed - and that is equivalent to the speed of movement of the left arm between P4 and P7.3 due to a pivot-induced release of PA#4.

The peripheral arm (which represents the clubshaft) is attached to the central arm at a peripheral hinge joint (equivalent to the left wrist in its plane of cocking - the plane of radial/ulnar deviation) - colored in blue. It is reasonable to state that the left arm is pulling the club (because the grip end of the club is attached to the left wrist/hand and the grip end of the club must follow the directional motion of the left wrist/hand). However, that doesn't mean that this motion of the left arm is a handle-dragging motion. The left arm is swinging in space, and the swinging motion of the left arm between P4 and low point (let's presume impact is at low point = P7) causes the left wrist/hand to transcribe a circular hand arc path in 3-D space. The motion of the left wrist/hand along that hand arc path will cause the club to automatically release - according to the laws of physics (and this represents a CF-release action = passive PA#2 release action). If the speed of release of PA#4 is optimised, then the clubhead (colored in red) should catch up to the left arm at low point (P7). Now, what would happen after low point? What would naturally happen between P7 and P7.2?

Consider this diagram.

perfectgolfswingreview.net/IntactLAFW.jpg [/img]

A represents the position of the left wrist at low point (P7) and C represents the position of the clubhead at low point (P7). Note that the shaft and left arm are in a straight line relationship - which means that one has an intact LAFW and a functionally-flat left wrist (FLW). Imagine that B represents the position of the left wrist at the P7.2 position, and D represents the position of the clubhead at the P7.2 position. Note that the LAFW is still intact which means that there must be still be a FLW at the P7.2 position, and that there is no flipping between P7 and P7.2. How is this feat accomplished from a biomechanical perspective?

The red curved double-arrowed line represents the angular motion of the intact LAFW (left arm/clubshaft in a straight line relationship) between the P7 postion and the P7.2 position. To maintain an intact LAFW, and avoid flipping, between P7 and P7.2 the angular rotational motion measured in radians (and angular rotational velocity) of the FLW must be equal to that that of the club. In other words, the clubhead has acquired a finite (let's say 100mph) clubhead speed at P7 and it will want to continue to travel at that speed (if there is no ball contact to slow the clubhead down) along its pre-ordained clubhead arc path. To maintain a FLW/intact LAFW between P7 and P7.2, the golfer must ensure that the left wrist/hand moves along its hand arc path at the same angular speed as the clubhead moves along its clubhead arc path. I believe that this motion of the FLW isn't a handle-dragging motion - because the left wrist/hand is not dragging the clubshaft along - they are simply both traveling at the same rotational (angular) speed. I refer to this release action - where a golfer maintains a FLW/intact LAFW between P7 and P7.2 as a DH-release action. There are two words that need defining - "drive" and "hold". What is driving the FLW between P7 and P7.2? It is simply due to the continued forward momentum of the left arm that is moving forward due to the release of PA#4. What is holding the left wrist flat between P7 and P7.2? It is simply due to the fact that the angular rotational velocity of the left arm/left wrist unit is perfectly matched from an angular/rotational velocity perspective to the angular velocity motion of the clubshaft/clubhead - they are both rotating at the same angular velocity.

Note that there is no handle-dragging action between P7 and P7.2 in my description. Note that there is no push action involved - because there is "nothing" pushing the FLW and/or the clubshaft forward - there is no right arm pushing action pushing the FLW forward by applying a push-pressure at PP#1 and there is no push-pressure pushing the grip end of the clubshaft forward by applying a push-pressure at PP#3. Therefore, I cannot understand how you could rationally classify this type of DH-release action as equivalent to Cotton's-described push release action. Where is the push force?

Note that there is "no conscious maintaining of wrist angles" between P4 and P7 in my description - and there is no restraining force that artificially impedes/restrains the "free" release of the clubhead. The clubhead is released freely pre-impact and it is also not
restrained after impact as it moves from P7 to P7.2 in my DH-release action.

I am still waiting for you to describe the biomechanics/mechanics of Cotton's push release action? What is doing the pushing? Where is the push force being applied? Is the right arm straightening action an active action that applies push-pressure at PP#1 and/or PP#3? Is there any right wrist straightening action involved? Is it active or passive? If active - does it cause the right index finger to apply a push-pressure against the aft side of the club via PP#3? Then how does the left wrist remain flat, and how does the LAFW remain intact, if you believe that Cotton's push-release action allows the LAFW to remain intact between P7 and P7.2 (as described in my DH release action)?

Jeff.

[natep]

Consider the 3 capture images below.

What we see in the relationship between the left arm, the hands, and the clubhead, is that they are NOT moving at the same RPMs, a la Homer's 'rhythm' conception.

The LAFW is not being thrust forward intact, the clubhead is clearly outracing the hands and the left arm.

This is so, even though it was virt's intention to do just that.

And I submit that if he were to accomplish fully what he set out to achieve, his ballstriking would have suffered for it.

[tomdavis76]

Jan 24, 2013 22:44:54 GMT -5 @natep said:

Consider the 3 capture images below.

What we see in the relationship between the left arm, the hands, and the clubhead, is that they are NOT moving at the same RPMs, a la Homer's 'rhythm' conception.

The LAFW is not being thrust forward intact, the clubhead is clearly outracing the hands and the left arm.

This is so, even though it was virt's intention to do just that.

And I submit that if he were to accomplish fully what he set out to achieve, his ballstriking would have suffered for it.

You're probably right. There's more to hit than "manufacturing" a flat left wrist...