Bending the left wrist through impact

[tomdavis76]

BTW, the slap-hinge or "under-flip" has won a bunch of majors recently (Oosthuizen, Kaymer, Harrington for starters). They just can't swing as hard as the drive/holders, but they are very accurate.

[bullet]

I would think that the club hitting the ground may be instrumental in hogan pics

[imperfectgolfer]

Natep posted the following as a guest.

"Consider the 3 capture images below.

What we see in the relationship between the left arm, the hands, and the clubhead, is that they are NOT moving at the same RPMs, a la Homer's 'rhythm' conception.

The LAFW is not being thrust forward intact, the clubhead is clearly outracing the hands and the left arm.

This is so, even though it was virt's intention to do just that.

And I submit that if he were to accomplish fully what he set out to achieve, his ballstriking would have suffered for it.




I have decided not to delete Natep's post because it simply reflects his sincere "belief"
regarding the issue of what represents "optimum biomechanics of the hand release action between P7 and P7.2", and his post is also free of ad hominem insults.

However, I disagree with Natep's opinion.

He is implying that the clubhead is outracing the hands at the P7.2 position (which is true to a very small degree), and he then states that Virtuoso's ball striking would be worse if he successfully avoided that scenario by successfully maintaining an intact LAFW/FLW between P7 and P7.2. Note that Natep doesn't explain why it would be worse - he merely expresses an opinion.

I believe that Virtuoso's clubhead outraces his hands at P7.2 simply because there was a small decrease in the angular velocity of his left arm between P7.1 (where he had a FLW/intact LAFW) and P7.2 (where he had a minor degree of flipping because his left arm couldn't keep up with his freely released clubhead). If Virtuoso increased the forward speed of angular motion of his left arm between P7.1 and P7.2 to a small degree so that the left arm could keep up with the freely released clubhead, then he would have a FLW/intact LAFW at P7.2. I cannot understand why a very small increase in the angular velocity of his left arm between P7.1 to P7.2 (that would allow him to maintain an intact LAFW/FLW between P7.1 to P7.2) would he harmful to his ball-striking. If any forum member can explain why, then I will seriously analyze their reasoning.

Jeff.

[imperfectgolfer]

Jeffy wrote-: "BTW, the slap-hinge or "under-flip" has won a bunch of majors recently (Oosthuizen, Kaymer, Harrington for starters). They just can't swing as hard as the drive/holders, but they are very accurate."

I disagree with Jeffy's reasoning. I believe that those golfers only have a pro-flipping action in the minority of their swing actions and I believe that they often maintain an intact LAFW/FLW from P6.9 to P7.1+. When they avoid any pro-flipping action between P6.9 and P7.1/P7.2, then I regard them as being DHErs (using my definition of a DHer - as expressed in a previous post - where a DHer is a golfer who maintains an intact LAFW/FLW throughout the immediate impact zone from P6.9 to P7.1). When they consistently use a DHer hand release action with a delayed full-roll hand release motion during the entire 72 holes of a major tour competition, then I would expect them to be very accurate and to perform very well, and therefore win.

Jeff.

[imperfectgolfer]

In reply #29, Jeffy wrote-: "There's more to hit than manufacturing" a flat left wrist.""

I have no idea what he means by the word "manufacture". However, I don't believe that one needs to "manufacture" a FLW for the exact moment of impact - if one has a FLW throughout the entire backswing from P2 to P4, and throughout the entire downswing from P4 to P7 (like Kellie Oride). Kellie is simply swinging her intact LAFW/FLW through impact without any stalling motion so that she looks like this at the P7.25 position. I don't think that Kellie is "manufacturing" a FLW for impact!



Kellie maintains the forward motion of her left arm so well after impact, that she maintains an intact LAFW to well beyond the P7.25 position.



Image 1 shows that Kellie still has an intact LAFW at the P7.4/7.5 position. Natep would presumably argue that her ball-striking suffers because she succeeds in maintaining an intact LAFW/FLW all the way to the P7.5 position. But why? If she is capable of maintaining the speed of forward motion of her left arm between P7 and P7.5, so that it can keep up with her freely released clubhead, why should that be harmful to the quality of her ball-striking?

Jeff.

[Dariusz J]

Jeff,

It is very tough for me to provide answers for your last post directed to me since you use many notions that I am not familiar with. Moreover, I think you are philosophing too much.

Let's start this way:

1. The names "push", "slap-hinge" and "crossover" are just names; Cotton used also different synonyms as e.g. "slack"; these three were simply the most used and popularized later (or revitalized) by Jim Hardy. I personally believe these names are not the best ones while the idea of dividing release phenomena into three main models, depending on what happens with the clubhead during the release is the most logical one.

2. Your question about the "push" release and what is being pushed there is actually a very good one but I cannot answer it now; I'll try to re-reead more carefully chapters in Cotton's books dedicated to wrists -- yes, he was so big on the very wrist actions that he wrote independent chapters about it (!); I'll revert to you with the best I am able to find there;

3. The double pendulum model you presented is not very useful tool when talking about biomechanics of the motion since it assumes that the main upper hub is being treated as immobilized while, in reality, it moves in 3-D; secondly, golfers swing with two arms and two hands on the grip -- as you may predict, is much easier to maintain flat wrist in lead arm when it is being swung alone (vide one-handed tennis backswing) than in case of swinging with two arms in a triangle;

4. As regards the girl, I believe her release is exactly a very good example of a Cotton's pure push release achieved unintentionally thanks to her great body capabilities I spoke about earlier; her release reminds me somehow of a great MacDonald Smith release. If you put now pre-secret Hogan pic next to hers, you can easily see what is the difference between and unintentional push release and intentional one induced by handle dragging);

5. The golfer you ridicule as a flipper is the very Harry Vardon, thus, someone whom the very vast majority of your best examples of flat lead wrist maintained couldn't polish shoes; he used slap-hinge release to win 7 majors plus all other tournaments; this fact alone should make you think to get rid of sticking over dead bodies to Kelley's TGM and watching everything through prism of it. If you do not like to hear that the book is flawed (which is true) just think in the categories it is not complete.

Cheers

[bullet]

Dariusz

Kelley didn't see things the way you present them ! Let me ask you 2 questions

How many times does Kelley mention stuff like flat left wrist with shaft lean ? How may times does he mention handle dragging?

[Dariusz J]

Bullet,

I cannot answer it now, since I am rarely using Kelley's book and have it from a relatively short period of time. The majority of my knowledge about TGM (which is accurate or not) I took from various internet fora. Certainly what e.g. Lynn Blake endorse is a hands-controlled-pivot approach with handle/wet mop dragging, and if I remember correctly, his forum is the closest to original Kelley's work.

Besides, as I mentioned before, I have my own thoughts about TGM geometry (famous low point lead stoulder hub model) which does not represent 3-D reality and, therefore, conclusions are flawed as well because they simply have to be.

Having said this I am all ears for good arguments even if they are going to ruin my up-to-now beliefs. I am in learning mode.

Cheers

[dhc1]

Jan 24, 2013 22:58:22 GMT -5 tomdavis76 said:

BTW, the slap-hinge or "under-flip" has won a bunch of majors recently (Oosthuizen, Kaymer, Harrington for starters). They just can't swing as hard as the drive/holders, but they are very accurate.

Jeffy,

I hope all is well and appreciate the hard work you and Kevin have done with the Arizona project.

Why are slap-hinger's very accurate? is it simply because they don't swing as hard? Having read through Kevin's work, I can't recall seeing him explain why just that DH's are not as accurate.

Thanks.

[imperfectgolfer]

Dariusz,

You wrote-: "The names "push", "slap-hinge" and "crossover" are just names; Cotton used also different synonyms as e.g. "slack"; these three were simply the most used and popularized later (or revitalized) by Jim Hardy. I personally believe these names are not the best ones while the idea of dividing release phenomena into three main models, depending on what happens with the clubhead during the release is the most logical one."

You have stated that you regard Cotton as the most knowledgeable person in the history of golf when it comes to left wrist actions during the hand release action. I disagree! I think that his classification system is not useful because I believe in the general principle of not using any swing technique that involves bending of the left wrist through impact, which means that I find the slap hinge release technique not useful for the average skilled golfer. Only a very small number of golfers have such terrific timing (eg. Vardon and Westwood) that it allows them to use that "wristy" technique to consistently strike the ball well using an active slap hinge release action. I also believe that the cross-over hand release technique should never be used, because one has to perfectly time a rolling motion of the clubface through impact, and that is too difficult because it requires perfect timing. That's why I reject your whole Cotton release-ideology, which implies that the best way to approach hand release actions is to base it on the behaviour of the clubhead/clubface through impact. I think that there should be no option in clubface behaviour through the immediate impact zone from P6.9-P7.1 - and I believe that the clubface should remain stable/neutral through impact for a few inches with the clubface facing the target. Many professional golfers can maintain a stable clubface that faces the target for many inches through the immediate impact zone, and I have listed many examples in my impact chapter. Here is one example.

KM video taken at 100,000 frames/second.



Here are capture images from the video.



Note how stable the clubface remains throughout its travel passage time through the immediate impact zone.

I believe that the best hand release action, that can consistently produce that type of stable clubhead/clubface action for many inches through the immediate impact zone, is a DH release action. You call it a push release action - even though you don't know why Cotton used the word "push". You also admitted you don't know how a DH-release action works biomechanically and you have made very vague references to the body's pivot motion and grip type as being causal factors, but you had nothing useful to say about the role of right arm straightening and/or right wrist straightening in this type of DH-release action, and nothing useful to say about biomechanical factors that "drive" or "hold" the FLW through impact. You even wrongly believe that Dustin Johnson (who straightens his right wrist through impact) and David Toms (who maintains a bent right wrist to P7.5) are using the same type of DH (push) release action - when I believe that the fundamental biomechanics are very different. I believe that there are three types of DH-release action that are used by swingers, swing-hitters and hitters, and that the fundamental biomechanics are very different. Cotton never discussed these issues in his simplistic approach.

You also wrote-: "The double pendulum model you presented is not very useful tool when talking about biomechanics of the motion since it assumes that the main upper hub is being treated as immobilized while, in reality, it moves in 3-D."

I think that your criticism is invalid. The DP model works perfectly well - even if you move the fulcrum point during the downswing action. That is how Miura designed his model that reproduced parametric acceleration.

See this Miura paper - Parametric Acceleration - The Effect of Inward Pull of the Golf Club at Impact Stage. K Miura. Sports Engineering (May 2001) 4: 75-86. Abstract available at onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1460-2687.2001.00071.x/abstract

Here is his diagram which moved the fulrum of the DP model using a linear actuator.



The graph on the left shows the velocity of movement of the linear actuator which moves the fulcrum point upwards during the downswing action (and this linear actuator action replicates the movement of the left shoulder socket up-and-away during the P6.5 -P7 time period). The graph on the right shows the effect on clubhead speed.

I discussed this issue in detail in this review paper - perfectgolfswingreview.net/ManzellaRelease.htm

You also wrote-: "secondly, golfers swing with two arms and two hands on the grip -- as you may predict, is much easier to maintain flat wrist in lead arm when it is being swung alone (vide one-handed tennis backswing) than in case of swinging with two arms in a triangle".

I totally disagree! It is as easy to play golf with two-arms (compared to one-arm) when one swings with an intact LAFW/FLW throughout the downswing/early followthrough. The majority of tour players use this intact LAFW/FLW technique.

Finally, you seem to believe that I am a TGM literalist and that is not true. For example, I no longer believe in the validity of Homer Kelley's hinging actions and I no longer use terms like horizontal hinging action/angled hinging action. I certainly no longer believe that there is any significant closing of the clubface during the impact interval - as claimed by HK for his HH action.

Jeff.

[Dariusz J]

Jeff,

Let me put one remark aimed at a better communication here on your forum; you still make one crucial mistake of criticoizing what you think requires it while totally omitting parts that you must agree with -- vide point 5. in my post -- every thinking person should agree that the release type that (among others) Vardon used must be valid. Otherwise let's question everyone else as well.

OK, ad rem again:

1. Let's agree to disagree then. Personally, I haven't seen a better classification of release types so far and I explained why.
BTW, I've checked two of four books of Cotton I possess and the only one references to "push" are:

" Players who use a minimum of wrist-work -- those who push the ball with a stiff-armed action -- can be well advised to acquire a flick* of the wrists; this can be done by hitting the ball with less follow-through during practice. "Hitting and stopping" -- pupils of the "cotton School" will know this expression.
Those who whip the ball, and use therefore only a wrist-flick, can build their game by cultivating an arm swing -- a push, in fact. I have found during teaching that players go into these two classes and few combine immediately the flick and the push to the best advantage to get the maximum results from their physical attributes."

* "Flick" is another synonym for slap-hinge.

"I am sure that a gradual squaring up of the face on the way down is safer than a quick unwinding hit, and so, as I have advised begore, a combination hit and push is preferable. Most succesful players use the hingeing of the left wrist more than they imagine.
"Players who use a snap turn of the wrists usually hit a long ball as they are late hitters, but they are apt to misjudge this turn when under pressure. I prefer to see a player use some proportion of push in his shots when he has to produce winners.*"

* this is what I believe was Cotton's ideal to merge push with slap-hinge release, or better said to find equilibrium between it.

" Players who use a minimum of wrist-work -- those who push the ball with a stiff-armed action -- can be well advised to acquire a flick of the wrists; this can be done by hitting the ball with less follow-through during practice. "Hitting and stopping" -- pupils of the "cotton School" will know this expression.
Those who whip the ball, and use therefore only a wrist-flick, can build their game by cultivating an arm swing -- a push, in fact. I have found during teaching that players go into these two classes and few combine immediately the flick and the push to the best advantage to get the maximum results from their physical attributes.

2. Why do you regard slapping action as "active"and constantly revert to timing ? I said it is a subconscious-friendly motion and physic-friendly motion that does not require any conscius action; please, be objective and do not create weak arguments so it is easier for you to counterargument them

3. I do not care if someone's name is Miura or Kowalski (popular Polish name put here for humour) -- the double pendulum model does not depict reality; parametric acceleration also happens in 3-D and, theoretically, the farther is the hub from the lead shoulder joint the bigger it is; lead shoulder joint is not stable in 3-D, thus, these papers are invalid;

4. I believe you're wrong; it is much easier to maintain flat lead wrist long after impact with one arm (as this pendulum model shows); if the other arm is added and the hub is close to the lead part, the traiking element will be always disturbing. Think about it and even make a simulation -- you'll see what I mean.

Cheers

[imperfectgolfer]

Dariusz,

Your quotes from Cotton made me laugh! If you find those quoted statements biomechanically meaningful then we operate very differently when it comes to thinking about golf swing biomechanics/mechanics.

You also wrote-: "Why do you regard slapping action as "active"and constantly revert to timing ? I said it is a subconscious-friendly motion and physic-friendly motion that does not require any conscius action; please, be objective and do not create weak arguments so it is easier for you to counterargument them."

A slap hinge action is generally regarded as active, although a right wrist palmar flexion action through impact can be passive (as recommended in Brian Manzella's RACP release action). I regard both types of right wrist palmar flexion action as problematic because they superimpose a horizontal left wrist hinging action onto a DH-release action and that requires an additional level of timing. I discussed an active slap hinge release action in Q&A number 1 of my impact chapter, and a passive slap hinge action in Q&A number 2 of that chapter.

perfectgolfswingreview.net/impact.htm

You also wrote-: "I do not care if someone's name is Miura or Kowalski (popular Polish name put here for humour) -- the double pendulum model does not depict reality

You are free to harbor that opinion. I think that it serves one useful purpose - the DP model explains how the club releases passively (explains the passive release of PA#2) and it explains how it is possible to get the clubhead to catch up to the hands by impact without any added positive torque from the right arm/hand unit.

Regarding playing with an intact LAFW/FLW with two-arms versus one-arm, you wrote-: "I believe you're wrong; it is much easier to maintain flat lead wrist long after impact with one arm (as this pendulum model shows); if the other arm is added and the hub is close to the lead part, the trailing element will be always disturbing. Think about it and even make a simulation -- you'll see what I mean."

I agree with your bold-highlighted statement. However, I was only thinking of the P4 to P7.3 time period, when it is very easy to maintain an intact LAFW/FLW using both arms, because in a swingers action the RFFW only plays a supportive role.

Jeff.

[Dariusz J]

Jeff,

Let's settle one thing once and for all -- I will never be able to match your standards as regards writing papers. It's not a compliment (although perhaps it is a bit) but a fact.

To explain Cotton's quotes -- I did not put them as biomechanical explanation you required but to present all valid associations with the word "push" that you asked for.

As regards active/passive release -- what do you see wrong in such a statement (that's a shortcut, thus, do not criticize it as a detailed explanation, it's just an example of an idea which Cotton could have had):
- the better is the body motion and all important elements the better are chances for an unintentional push release to become;
- if the body is not so able as it wants to be, wrists starts EARLIER either to flex (slap-hinge) or forearms to rotate (crossover) because momentum calls for getting rid of excessive energy, torques must de-torque, etc.
- the above actions are free of conscious thoughts and totally subdued to physics and anatomy.

Last but not least, a huge THANK YOU for agreeing with me at least with one issue.

Cheers and good night.

[tomdavis76]

Jan 25, 2013 9:21:55 GMT -5 dhc1 said:

Jan 24, 2013 22:58:22 GMT -5 tomdavis76 said:

BTW, the slap-hinge or "under-flip" has won a bunch of majors recently (Oosthuizen, Kaymer, Harrington for starters). They just can't swing as hard as the drive/holders, but they are very accurate.

Jeffy,

I hope all is well and appreciate the hard work you and Kevin have done with the Arizona project.

Why are slap-hinger's very accurate? is it simply because they don't swing as hard? Having read through Kevin's work, I can't recall seeing him explain why just that DH's are not as accurate.

Thanks.

The under-flippers on tour get the face squared early and the hands in a good impact position, just like the drive/holders. For a variety of different reasons, depending on the individual, their left wrist bends right after impact, which encourages pronation of the left forearm, good anti-hook medicine.

[bullet]

Lynn Blake asked a question to homer Kelley . Kelley asked him 7 . I doubt that Blake had much time with Kelley and he was out of golf for what 20 odd years . I'm going to be honest . I find it ridiculous that people rant on about Tgm without having a clue

I got one more question for you D . If homer was so into shaft lean and handle dragging why did he call all releases " throws"?