Bending the left wrist through impact

[imperfectgolfer]

See this BM-forum thread.

www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/18021-trackman-newsletter-9-a-8.html

Jim Kobylinski stated in post #76-: "The left wrist by both force and anatomically should be allowed to bend through the ball; if it doesn't you are emparting some kind of negative torque on your wrist and this is a hinderence to both speed and what the club "wants to do." It's an option, but not a good one imo. I got much better at actual golf when i stopped caring about how flat my left was as long as i was creating the proper dynamic loft through the ball."

He is yet another BM-affiliated instructor who believes that the left wrist must bend through impact because that's what the club "wants to do". The idea that the club has a "mind of its own" is an idea that only a BM groupie can understand. Fortunately, skilled golfers, like Virtuoso, and most pro golfers maintain a FLW through impact.

Here is Virtuoso through impact.



I guess that he is not allowing his club to do "what it wants to do" through impact - seeing that he maintains a FLW well beyond impact.

I guess that Dustin Johnson also has the same problem.



Jeff.

[imperfectgolfer]

Kevin Shields is another BM groupie who thinks like Jim K.

He states-: Trying to hold a flat left through the ball is good for absolutely no one. If it stays flat for some, fine. But trying to do it is never good. It's a free hinge, don't ever hold it. If you have to hold it or take a divot to hold it, you're doing something very wrong "

How does he "a priori" know that it's a "free hinge". I think that it's only a free hinge if you let it hinge freely.

I guess that Tiger Woods is doing "something" very wrong in his swing action through impact - considering that he is maintaining a FLW through impact (see images 1, 2 and 3).



I guess that Heath Slocum has the same problem.



Jeff.

[imperfectgolfer]

Jared Willerson is another BM-groupie who thinks that the club "knows what it wants to do" and he stated-: "The flat left wrist was simply an alignment to control the club face in Tgm speak The club doesn't want to do that and any hindrance of the club acting like a club decreases accuracy and speed.."

He even believes that maintaining a FLW decreases accuracy!!!!

Poor Kellie - according to Jared, she has no hope of becoming accurate.




I guess that David Toms also has no hope of being accurate - considering that he maintains a FLW through impact.




What about the golfer who has the reputation of being the most accurate striker of the ball in the history of golf - Moe Norman? How did he achieve that feat considering that he maintained a FLW through impact?




Jeff.

[tomdavis76]

JEFF, LOL! That was hilarious!

[imperfectgolfer]

Here is what Dariusz has to say about the FLW-: "One more thing -- as I can see in the net, some people are ignorant enough not to distinguish between devastating handle dragging anti-natural conscious procedure and the real state of the lead wrist in the strict impact zone.

Cotton, who probably was the biggest expert on wrists in the history of golf, said wisely that there are some who needs to apply more wrist hinging in the zone (famous hinge drill of Cotton school), as well as there are some that will benefit from limiting hinging in the zone -- however, never through conscious action but through improving some completely independent elements such as e.g. body turn or grip to name a few; some also advocate drills to strengthen forearms and wrists which I am not a fan of but cannot deny a lot of greats from earlier times had these two trained hard thanks to daily jobs they needed to do when they were caddies. But that's another pair of shoes than just mechanics. "

That Dariusz manifests the idiotic belief that Henry Cotton is the biggest expert regarding left wrist motion through impact in the history of golf is not surprising. He is also making the classic BM-groupie mistake of equating a FLW with handle-dragging and who believes that one has to be handle-dragger to obtain a FLW through impact.

Here again is David Toms' swing.



What evidence does he have that David Toms is a handle-dragger?

What BM-groupies and Dariusz cannot fathom is that one doesn't have to use forearm/wrist muscle strength to manifest a FLW through impact - one simply has to maintain a FLW all the way from P4 to P7.5 - like David Toms. He doesn't "create" a FLW through impact because he has a FLW throughout his entire downswing and followthrough - and it doesn't require conscious thought and its not anti-natural.



Note that David Toms has a FLW and intact LAFW throughout his entire downswing action, and note that the club releases within the plane of his LAFW. He is not dragging the handle of the club down to impact - he is swinging the "handle of the club" using a swinging motion of his left arm (like a tennis player performing a backhanded tennis stroke action).

Dariusz finally ended his post by writing-: "That's all what should be said in the topic. It is not a rocket science and thinking does not hurt."

I agree - thinking does not hurt, and I believe that Dariusz and the BM groupies would benefit greatly if they indulged in more deep thinking re: David Toms' golf swing mechanics/biomechanics.

Jeff.

[imperfectgolfer]

Dariusz attempted to post as a guest in this thread, but I immediately deleted his post because it contained a plethora of ad hominem insults.

However, I will address his challenge to answer these three questions that he posed- :

"You often present some swings showing flat lead wrist after impact; what about greats that used slap-hinge release type that is classified as error in your book? Would you e.g. argue with Hogan that a man whom he idolized and called him the best ballstriker that ever lived bent his lead wrist already at separation? Would you argue with Cotton when he clearly says that great players use flexion of lead wrist more than they realize ? Would you try to ask Westwood's coach to get rid of such an elementary flaw that should make him a 15-capper because TGM say so ?"

Henry Cotton was a great ball-striker despite the fact that he manifested left wrist bending soon after impact - as does Lee Westwood. However, what point is he trying to make - considering the more important fact that they both had to have a FLW at the exact moment of impact? It is obvious that if one has perfect timing so that one can consistently obtain a FLW and square clubface at the exact moment of impact, then it doesn't matter if the left wrist bends very soon after impact. So, why does David Toms (and most PGA tour golfers) maintain a FLW until at least P7.2, and often until P7.5 (like Toms) after impact? The answer is obvious - they play with an intact LAFW throughout the entire downswing and early followthrough because it is a much easier mechanical/biomechanical method of consistently ensuring a FLW at the exact moment of impact.

What Dariusz doesn't understand is that having a FLW at impact is not only a TGM imperative, it is an imperative that all golfers (including Cotton, Hogan and Westwood) must manifest if they want to have a "square clubface that faces the target at impact".

When I use the word FLW - I mean "functionally flat" and not anatomically flat.

Here are three examples of left hand grip strength where the clubface faces the target at impact and in all three examples the left wrist is "functionally flat".



The red line represents a "functionally flat" left wrist because the clubshaft and left arm are in a straight line relationhship. Note that the red line and the clubface are square to the target at impact - and that is a mandatory requirerment (even for Cotton and Westwood) if one wants to have the clubface become square to the the target at impact. What I have introduced is the idea of playing with an intact LAFW/FLW throughout the entire downswing from P4 to P7.5 as the optimum biomechanical/mechanical method of ensuring a square clubface at impact. I would like to see Dariusz (or a BM-groupie) provide a counter-argument!

Dariusz claims that Hogan bent his left wrist at the exact moment of separation. That's obviously an idiotic claim.

Here is an image of Hogan soon after impact.



Hogan is at the P7.2 position and he still has a FLW/intact LAFW.

Jeff.

p.s. Dariusz is continuing to post the same post repeatedly and I will continue to delete it - and I will only stop deleting his posts when he eliminates all ad hominem insults from his posts and when he only produces a counterargument that is focused entirely on the topic of golf swing mechanics/biomechanics. He can present any counter-argument, but I will not allow there to be any insulting post that contains comments targeted at a person (rather than his views re: golf swing mechanics/biomechanics) in this forum.

[Dariusz J]

I am modifying Dariusz post to bold-highlight certain comments that I perceive as being unnecessary ad hominem insults.

Darius asked-: "I am using the same language as you are using! Show me where I use something that you wouldn't !

My answer that demonstrates that Dariusz continues to add unnecessary ad homineim insults - see the bold-highlighted comments in Dariusz' original post below.

--------------------------------------------------

I am astounding at your nonsensical and imbecical beliefs, Jeff Mann, where you question Henry Cotton's knowledge and, simultaneously, prefer pseudo-scientific knowledge of an aircraft engineer aid and a golf hacker, Homer Kelley. Secondly, I am not a BM groupie. Even you should know it. This is an ad-hominem remark of youre subjective opinion that is not allowed here, as I heard; unless you change again the rules according to the necessity of situation.
Thirdly, do not add things that one doesn't say since it makes your comments even more wrong-headed; if your reading capability is greater you would understand that I intended to underline only avoiding the mistake of applying conscious efforts aimed at maintaining flat lead wrist long after separation.

Lastly, let me ask you about some issues as follows:

1. Show me your full-speed swing from all 3 angles where you maintain flat lead wrist instead presenting idiotical pictures with a kids badmington racquet; BTW, I do not accept any cowardish excuses that your body is not in shape, etc. FYI, my body is far from perfect shape and I can present all mechanical meanders I believe as crucial in a swing motion.

2. You often present some swings showing flat lead wrist after impact; what about greats that used slap-hinge release type that is classified as error in your book ? Would you e.g. argue with Hogan that a man whom he idolized and called him the best ballstriker that ever lived bent his lead wrist already at separation ? Would you argue with Cotton when he clearily says that great players use flexion of lead wrist more than they realize ? Would you try to ask Westwood's coach to get rid of such an elementary flaw that should make him a 15-capper because TGM say so ?

Answer these questions first honestly to yourself, then write them in your post.

Lastly, I wish to inform you (out of little residues of respect I have towards you taking into account our well-spirited exchanges of opinions on other fora long time ago) that if you delete my post because either: a. you're unable to admit to your own mistakes; b. you're unable to answer sincerily; or c. my post is too difficult to retort -- it will be my last attempt not to treat some Jeff Mann as an air.

Cheers

P.S. I will be repeating this post purposedly within 24 hours so that the only one possible escape, i.e. to delete the post within the shortest possible time after posting so that noone would read it is being excluded.

[Dariusz J]

Next questions:

Can you differ pre-secret handle-dragger Hogan that had hooking problems from post-secret properly releasing Hogan ?

Do you know what handle-dragging means ?

and last but not least:

SHOW ME YOUR REAL SWING !

Cheers

[gmbtempe]

I dont have time to peal through all your info Jeff at work but I read a few of the posts at BM's, pretty clear there is a large disconnect. I feel you can get a DJ, Hogan, Tom's release without intentionally holding the left wrist, they keep talking like you have to add negative torgue in order to do that, I clearly disagree with Jim, Jared and stated so over there.

[Dariusz J]

Of course ! Some of them, great players, can maintain flat lead wrist longer than others not because they are handle draggers -- otherwise I should condemn them as 15-cappers (identically to TGMers when talking about slap-hinge release which they even cannot classify well) which would be stupid -- but because they create individual physical capability to do so.
The big problem starts if people like you, Jeff, prefer to force someone to apply conscious handle dragging just to meet the geometrical ideal. Remember once and for all, that physics and anatomy are 100 times more important than geometry which can just be a "useful servant" in some cases, but never a "master".

Cheers

[gmbtempe]

I force people to do anything Dariusz, really? I have preferences, anyone can do what they want.

[imperfectgolfer]

Dariusz - Why should I show you my "real swing" when I can use the swings of professional golfers to make my points? I am discussing the topic of optimum golf swing mechanics/biomechanics as they apply to skilled golfers, and not hackers like me.

Where is your "evidence" that Hogan didn't maintain a FLW in his later post-accident career?

Here is a photo from his post-accident time period.



Jeff.

[gmbtempe]

It is funny Jeff that a common ploy on these internet forums is to try to dispute someones belief on a mechanical move in the golf swing if they cannot execute the move themselves.

[imperfectgolfer]

Dariusz wrote-: "The big problem starts if people like you, Jeff, prefer to force someone to apply conscious handle dragging just to meet the geometrical ideal. Remember once and for all, that physics and anatomy are 100 times more important than geometry which can just be a "useful servant" in some cases, but never a "master"."

Dariusz - when do I recommend handle-dragging? Do you really believe that playing golf with an intact LAFW/FLW from P4 to P7.5 represents "handle-dragging"? Do you believe that David Toms is a handle-dragger?

Do you believe that Kellie Oride is a handle-dragger in this swing video - where she maintains a FLW/intact LAFW from P4 to P7.5+?





Also, I believe in optimum physics + optimum anatomy (golf biomechanics) + optimum geometry. If you have "evidence" that playing golf with an intact LAFW/FLW from P4 to P7.5 represents non-optimum golf swing physics/anatomy, then please present a counterargument.

Jeff.

[imperfectgolfer]

Greg,

You wrote-: "It is funny Jeff that a common ploy on these internet forums is to try to dispute someones believe on a mechanical move in the golf swing if they cannot executre the move themselves."

It is not a funny ploy! It is an irrational and a pitiful ploy that people like cwdlaw223 often use. It is sad to see Dariusz resorting to using that same ploy. I have always acknowledged that I am a hacker with an imperfect golf swing, but that is irrelevant to the logical coherency of my opinions re: golf swing mechanics/biomechanics - because my opinions re: golf swing mechanics/biomechanics are only relevant to skilled amateur/professional golfers (and not hackers).

Jeff.