Bending the left wrist through impact

[imperfectgolfer]

Here is BM misrepresenting "reality" again with grossly wrongheaded claims.

www.golf.com/video/hit-irons-tiger-woods-video-instruction-tip

In this video, BM claims that Tiger is going from an arched left wrist pre-impact to a FLW at impact to a bent left wrist soon after impact, thereby implying that Tiger is using a pro-flipping release action through impact.

That's obviously a false claim, and Brian actually proves himself wrong by posting a video clip of Tiger after impact - here is a capture image taken directly from his video.



This capture image shows Tiger at the P7.3 position and one can clearly see that Tiger still has a FLW and a significantly bent right wrist, and that he didn't flip-bend his left wrist soon after impact. In other words, BM has provided definitive "evidence" to disprove his own claim. Tiger is using a DH-release action through impact.

BM also has a video clip of Tiger performing a finish swivel action in his video-presentation and he claims that Tiger's left wrist is bent during that point in time. That's possibly true, but Tiger only uses a finish swivel action after the followthrough phase of his swing as he transitions from his followthrough phase into the finish phase of his swing - and that transition zone is no where near the immediate impact zone.

Only BM groupies can possibly be fooled by this BM video that grossly misrepresents reality!

Addendum added later:

As I stated above, it is possible that Tiger's left wrist is bent during his finish swivel phase. However, that is not necessarily true in every iron swing action.

Consider this video of Tiger hitting a short iron shot.



In this swing action, he is using a DH release action (combined CP-arm release action + no-roll hand release action).

Here are capture images from his transitional zone phase - when he transitions from his followthrough phase to his finish swivel action phase.



Image 1 shows him at P7.5 (end of the followthrough) - note that he still has a FLW and bent right wrist.

Image 2 shows him starting his finish swivel action - note that he is supinating his left forearm, and that allows his pronating right forearm to swivel his straightening right wrist/hand over his left palm. Image 3 shows the completion of the finish swivel action. If you look carefully, you will note that his left wrist is still flat and not bent. In other words, he doesn't even bend his left wrist after he bypasses the P7.5 position in some of his iron shots - thereby clearly disproving BM's wrong-headed claims!

Jeff.

p.s. If you think about the biomechanics carefully, you will realize that left wrist bending during a finish swivel action is more likely to occur if one uses a CF-arm release action rather than a CP-arm release action. Now that Tiger is using a CP-arm release action more frequently for his iron shots, that will allow him to maintain a FLW to well beyond the P7.5 position, and even allow him to maintain a FLW during the finish phase of his swing action (which is an optional, and not a mandatory choice).

[imperfectgolfer]

See this BM-forum thread.

www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/18046-brian-manzella-golf-magazine-golf-com-front9-tigers-hand-move-wi-his-irons.html

BM wrote-: "Just about every really good swinger of the club moves the wrist TOWARD arched in the start down, TOWARD bent toward the end of the 1st phase of the downswing, TOWARD ARCHED pre-impact, THEN RAPIDLY TOWARD BENT through impact!"

That's complete BS!

I will donate $1,000 to BM's website if he can show that happening in all of the following videos.

Tiger Woods short iron swing



Tiger Woods Driver swing



Heath Slocum driver swing



Keegan Bradley driver swing



Dustin Johnson driver swing



Kellie Oride driver swing



David Toms driver swing



In particular, note how David Toms maintains a FLW/intact LAFW throughout his downswing and followthrough and he even maintains a FLW into his finish swivel action.

Jeff.

[gmbtempe]

I am going to pass on that challenge.

[imperfectgolfer]

Greg asked BM what causes the rapid bending of the left wrist soon after impact.

BM answered by stating that it was "negative alpha".

Here is BM showing left wrist bending soon after impact.



BM stated that left wrist bending (as demonstrated) happens in all good golfers' swings.

I will increase the monetary value of my bet, and I will donate $10,000 to BM's website if he (or any forum member) can show that post-impact left wrist flipping phenomenon happening in all of the many videos posted in my previous post (post #61).

Jeff.

[imperfectgolfer]

Greg took BM up on his claim that all good golfers bend the left wrist soon after impact - as BM demonstrated in that "negative alpha" photo - by posting the following photo of BM at the P7.2+ position.



Bravo Greg!

Jeff.

p.s. That capture image shows that even BM maintains an intact LAFW/FLW to the P7.2+ position in his full swing action.

[tomdavis76]

What is this absurd desire on Manzella's part to reflexively proclaim that "such and such" (his latest "blockbuster" discovery) happens in "all good golf swings" First, it's almost never true, and second, the official posture there is "we tailor things to the individual"! Shields just posted last night that "it's nice to NOT have models". Well, then, what the hell is all this about "negative alpha" (whatever that is) happening in "all good swings" Sounds like a "model" to me.

BTW, rollers DON'T flip rapidly after impact and make it to tour, so that means Luke and Phil must not have "good swings"...for the love of god...

[gmbtempe]

How is it possible to measure negative alpha in a swing? I am sure Brian has gone through how his scientists came up with this but I just dont recall.

[tomdavis76]

Jan 29, 2013 23:02:12 GMT -5 gmbtempe said:

How is it possible to measure negative alpha in a swing? I am sure Brian has gone through how his scientists came up with this but I just dont recall.

Geez, it's simple: if the forearms don't roll counter-clockwise post-impact, which is the case for flippers and drive/holders, at some point the left wrist bends back.

For extreme laggers like Dustin and Gainey, the left wrist bend happens later than for pro-flippers like Lee Westwood. But, so what?

This only matters to someone like Brian and other TGM "flat left wrist" types who taught an active resistance to this left wrist bending because they had no idea how to teach the right kind of pivot: they all taught stalls.

Brian refuses to acknowledge that, with the right kind of pivot, extreme laggers can release the wrists at impact with all their might yet not bend the left wrist until well past impact. He doesn't know how to teach that kind of pivot, so all he gets are flips rapidly after impact. So he says that's what happens in "all good swings". Complete horseshit.

[imperfectgolfer]

This is BM's idea of "evidence" that the left wrist bends through impact.





This is my idea of "evidence" that the left wrist doesn't bend through impact.





Jeff.

[tomdavis76]

Jan 29, 2013 23:30:54 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

This is my idea of "evidence" that the left wrist doesn't bend through impact.





Jeff.

Parallax.

[imperfectgolfer]

What about "parallax"?

All 2-D photos/videos suffer from parallax distortion, but it doesn't significantly alter one's "correct" interpretation of reality - especially when one uses one's "mind" to reconstruct the underlying biomechanics that must be happening to John Oda's left wrist/hand/forearm between P7 and P7.2.

Jeffy - you need to get KM to use his Phantom camera to video John Oda's swing from an upline and also from a birds-eye view perspective - it would probably be extremely useful.

Jeff.

[gmbtempe]

I think if I post anymore questions in that thread it probably will not go over so well, but there is no context to that graph, in the arch versus bend relation, that could be 1 degree of change or 10 degrees, it looks like a lot, maybe it is, but its tough to relate graph/to pictures.

[imperfectgolfer]

Greg,

That BM-supplied diagram is meaningless.

Look at this David Toms' followthrough.



How could it be possible for his left wrist to be significantly bent post-impact if his clubshaft is in a straight line relationship with his left forearm in images 2, 3 and 4? Note also that his right wrist is not more straightened in those three sequential images.

Jeff.

[imperfectgolfer]

Let's consider the movement of the clubshaft through impact.

Consider this diagram of clubshaft motion through impact.



Club position 1 is at P6.85 and one can see that there is forward shaft lean.

Clubshaft position 2 is at low point and the clubshaft is vertical to the ground.

Clubshaft position 3 is at P7.15 and there is backward shaft lean.

Now let's consider the left wrist motions that are needed to achieve those club positions presuming a neutral left hand grip.



The red line represents the back of the left hand, the blue line represents the back of the left forearm and the green angled line represents the left wrist angle needed to achieve the angled relationship between the left forearm and the clubshaft in those three different clubshaft positions.

Note that the left wrist is arched (palmar flexed) in image 1, flat in image 2 and bent (dorsiflexed) in image 3.

So, BM must be correct when he claims that the left wrist moves from arched-to-flat-to-bent through impact. Note that it "appears" that the butt end of the club is moving backwards away from the target in image 3 as BM demonstrated in his "negative alpha" photo.

I guess I owe him $10,000 - or is there "something" missing in this diagrammatic analysis?

Of course there is "something" missing - and the missing biomechanical ingredient is the fact that the left forearm doesn't remain vertical to the ground in a "real life" golf swing when it moves through the immediate impact zone and it also doesn't remain in a non-rotary alignment (relative to a face-on perspective). The left forearm rotates counterclockwise as it simultaneously changes its degree of angulation (relative to a face-on perspective) during its passage through the immediate impact zone.

Consider John Oda's hand release action.



Here are capture images from the P6.85 position, low point and the P7.15 position.



Image 1 is at the P6.85 position. I have placed a red dot over the scaphoid bone area of the left wrist and a blue dot over the 3rd metacarpophalangeal joint area (3rd knuckle).

Image 2 is at low point - when the clubshaft is vertical to the ground. I have placed a green dot over the scaphoid bone area of the left wrist and a yellow dot over the 3rd metacarpophalangeal joint area (3rd knuckle).

Image 3 is at the P7.15 position. I have placed an orange dot over the scaphoid bone area of the left wrist and a pink dot over the 3rd metacarpophalangeal joint area (3rd knuckle).

The curved red arrow shows the directional motion of those "fixed" points through impact, and one doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to see that their curved/arced path is due to the continuous counterclockwise rotation and angulation of the left forearm between P6.85 and P7.15. It is that continuous biomechanical motion of the left forearm that allows John Oda to maintain a FLW between P6.85 and P7.15. There is definitely no visual evidence of an arched left wrist in image 1 or a bent left wrist in image 3. The BM groupies may not understand this simple lesson in human golf biomechanics, but it must be pretty obvious to any NGI forum member who can think rationally.

One can also clearly see that same left forearm angulation/rotation movement in BM's swing action, and that explains why he still has a FLW post-impact.



Look at BM's left forearm alignment and his bent right wrist and his FLW - they look identical to John Oda's in image 3, which is not surprising considering that they both use a neutral left hand grip and they are both skilled golfers who can maintain a FLW/intact LAFW through impact.

Jeff.

[imperfectgolfer]

BM stated in his forum's thread today-:

"The "sustain the flat left wrist" idea is The First Commandment of the faux science golf instruction "religions."

Thankfully, I escaped the penitentiary".

He may think that he has moved out of the penitentiary, but he has not yet moved out of the lunatic asylum. Thankfully, his left wrist doesn't obey the dictates of his deranged mind during its passage through the impact zone, and he still maintains a FLW through impact.

Jeff.