Bending the left wrist through impact

[Dariusz J]

Jeff,

OK, let's start to examine the most important factors.

Let's start with pivot and axis tilt, since both are somehow linked to each other (upper body pivot transverse plane angle).

I claim that:

a. the smaller the body turn (or the sooner it stops) is the sooner both arms (humera) lose connection with the body and go in front of the body; rear arm straighten too soon as well. The result is crossover of forearms due to both physical forces applied as well as anatomical possibility of RoM in this area;

b. if the pivot is greater (resulting in having open hips and square or slighlt open shoulders at impact) both humera works more with the turning body, rear arm remains bent longer preventing the swivel to happen too early;

c. the secondary axis tilt (upper body angle) -- now listen carefully; the greater it is the easier is to maintain wrist angles longer after the true low point on the ground since (excuse me not professional explanation) the shoulder girdle is being tilted creating a virtual low point farther targetwise and up -- which is very logical taking into account the wrists start to bent at the low point of the arc naturally (due to both physical forces applied as well as anatomical possibility of RoM in this area).

Reasuming, in an unintentional motion:
- poor pivot + no upper body extension = conditions for mix of crossover+slap-hinge release;
- poor pivot + good upper body extension = conditions for pure crossover release;
- good pivot + no upper body extension = conditions for slap-hinge release;
- good pivot + good upper body extension = conditions for push release.

Please critique this thesis but first try to experiment on yourself with a real golf club held in both hands.

Next factor is the grip strength, but I will revert to it when we end the discussion of this section.

Cheers

[bullet]

Dariusz , perhaps you can help out Manzella and his boys ! Boo Weekly was considered a handle dragger until it was pointed out that statistically he was one of the best balstrikers . Now on Manzella @ . Faceabout .com guys like Weekly are actually flipping but video doesn't show the bent left wrist around impact .
Check out this post by Jared Willy. This guy is an average hack who couldn't cut a morad pattern but is squealing like a pig to Manzella . It hasn't gone un noticed either with the big mouth Manzella claiming how he teaches the pivot now. Some of it is straight out of morad play book . Of course Manzella states he has been teaching it for 25 plus years . Well if he has been he sure didn't produce a decent looking pivot on himself or any other golfer .
But let's just enjoy the new concept for the week and the gems that come out of the worlds greatest group of instructors


In going over this while practicing I have reached the conclusion that reconciles a flip and release, IMO.

A timed flip, is not really a lot to do with the hands but more a timed handle drag. Handle dragging causes a flip and inconsistent contact with the ground (irons) this is because when you drag from the top the release point of the hands in the downswing becomes erratic and tougher to time well.

In a well timed good release, there is no handle dragging, contact with the ground is more consistent. So, flipping the hands harder and earlier, with no handle drag, is really the golf swing.

Amateur analysis I am sure but it makes sense in my head.

[imperfectgolfer]

Dariusz,

In general, I can easily accept your belief that variations in the degree of pivot motion, and the speed of pivot motion through impact, can affect the likelihood of a DH-release versus a SH/CO release.

However, I do not accept your theory that increased secondary axis tilt will allow a golfer to maintain a FLW/bent right wrist for longer after impact. I think that it actually increases the chance of right wrist straightening through impact because one is more likely to run-out-of-right arm before impact, and the momentum of the released club will flex-bend the left wrist, and passively straighten the right wrist.

Most importantly, I believe that these listed factors are secondary factors that influence the likelihood of any type of release action happening through impact. I think that the primary factors are the speed of left arm/hand motion through impact and the presence of any active right arm/wrist straightening action through impact, and the presence of any rotary motions of the forearms through impact.

In your unintentional swing action, you seemingly believe that those combinations will result in a greater likelihood of different releases. For example, you believe that the combination of a poor pivot + poor extension will predispose to either a SH or CO release, or both. What use is that "belief" from a golfer's learning perspective. Also, how is he going to perfect the timing of either a CO-release action or a SH-release action, so that he has a square clubface at impact - if he operates in an unintentional manner? I only believe in the idea of an intentional hand release action - and I can intentionally perform either a DH-release or a SH-release or a CO-release (with a good pivot motion or a poor pivot motion). That means that a golfer can be taught to intentionally perform any hand release action, and he can therefore choose to use the appropriate biomechanics for each hand release action in a consistent/controllable manner. How can one perform a hand release action consistently/controllably if one operates unintentionally?

By the way - I, of course, am biased and I would always recommend a DH-release action, and I would never recommend a SH-release action or a CO-release action.

Jeff.

[bullet]

Whatever handle dragging is !

[gmbtempe]

Feb 1, 2013 10:32:10 GMT -5 bullet said:

Whatever handle dragging is !

Can't you look at a impact photo and just see what it is...........get with the times man. ;D

[imperfectgolfer]

Here is link to BM's collection of golfers who he claims are flipping their left wrist after impact.

vimeo.com/28263441#

The collection shows golfers at impact and then at the ~p7.5 position - from a face-on viewing perspective.

Because they are all shown from a face-on viewing perspective, one can clearly see that they all have right wrist straightening. However, the left wrist cannot be seen behind the right wrist in most of those images. So, how do we know that the left wrist is bent?

Consider a biomechanical clue that is useful?

Consider some of the golfers in that BM collection.



Image 1 is Harry Vardon, image 2 is John Daly, image 3 is Freddie Couples, image 4 is Mickey Wright, Image 5 is Tom Watson and image 6 is Johnny Miller.

I believe that only the first 3 golfers have a bent left wrist. One can clearly see enough of the left wrist in image 1 and 2 to know that the left wrist is bent. However, one cannot see enough of the left wrist in the next 4 images to know whether it is bent, or not.

Here is an useful biomechanical clue?

Look at the radial border of the left forearm just above the hand. In image 1, 2 and 3 it is still perpendicular to the ball-target line, and that is compatible with a bent left wrist. In images 4, 5 and 6, the left forearm has rotated counterclockwise to a large degree and that makes it far more likely that the left wrist is still flat at the P7.5 position.

One really needs an upline viewing perspective to see this phenomenon better.



One can clearly see that Tiger still has a FLW in image 3 - despite a straightening right wrist - and that is due to the fact that he has rotated his left arm/forearm counterclockwise enough to enable him to prevent any left wrist bending by P7.5.

The same applies to Dustin Johnson in his followthrough action.



Note that he still has a FLW in image 4.

Don't let BM's biased video presentation fool you - use your knowledge of golf biomechanics to help you from easily being fooled by a "snake oil salesman" golf instructor, who wants to promote a particular "fixed" idea.

To maintain a FLW to the P7.5 position, a golfer needs to actively abduct the left arm enough + rotate the left lower forearm counterclockwise enough to maintain an intact LAFW.

Consider two Freddie Couples images.



He is flipping grossly in image 1 - note that his left arm has stalled and his left forearm has not rotated counterclockwise.

He has far less flipping in image 2 - because he has abducted his left arm more and he has also rotated his left forearm counterclockwise enough to prevent gross flipping soon after impact.

Jeff.

[Dariusz J]

Bullet,

I admit I haven't paid special attention to Weekley before but I am doing it now. What I can see is that he is not a handle dragger, moreover, he uses a push release even with a slight influence of slap-hinge one:



He has strongish grip and I bvelieve that it helps him keeping the angles better (I will explain why I think so when we come to the grip with Jeff).

Handle dragging is something that Blake advocates (one can see in this very thread how it looks) and it fooled my brain since I thought all TGM support such a horrible procedure if Blake endorses something as the literallist.
IMO, it is very easy to define a handle dragger and there are no such on tour which is easily understandable since not only it requires lots of timing (probably comparably to deliberate crossover release) but is horribly unnatural from both physical and anatomical points of view.

As regards what happens on the Manzella's forum -- they all know what I think. Fortunately, they share my disgust to it, however, I do agree that it is a good idea to explain also there who is to be blamed for handle dragging once and for all.

Cheers

[gmbtempe]

Feb 1, 2013 12:26:09 GMT -5 @Dariusz J said:

Bullet,

I admit I haven't paid special attention to Weekley before but I am doing it now. What I can see is that he is not a handle dragger, moreover, he uses a push release even with a slight influence of slap-hinge one:



He has strongish grip and I bvelieve that it helps him keeping the angles better (I will explain why I think so when we come to the grip with Jeff).

Handle dragging is something that Blake advocates (one can see in this very thread how it looks) and it fooled my brain since I thought all TGM support such a horrible procedure if Blake endorses something as the literallist.
IMO, it is very easy to define a handle dragger and there are no such on tour which is easily understandable since not only it requires lots of timing (probably comparably to deliberate crossover release) but is horribly unnatural from both physical and anatomical points of view.

As regards what happens on the Manzella's forum -- they all know what I think. Fortunately, they share my disgust to it, however, I do agree that it is a good idea to explain also there who is to be blamed for handle dragging once and for all.

Cheers

Why was I labeled a handle dragger by many in their forum two-three years ago, led by Finney?

Here is my swing from that time.



I mean how much more should I flip after impact?

[Dariusz J]

Jeff,

Thanks for your critics that I find full of good argumentation. I will stick, however, to secondary axis tilt as a factor bringing greater possibility to keep the wrist angles longer. I will return to it in due time.

Anyhow, I would like to focus on the second part of your post -- namely, the question "What use is that "belief" from a golfer's learning perspective". It is crucial to understand, that in case we can define factors (let's assume for the sake of good discussion) that I succeed in defining factors. Golfers not only will be able to deduct what to work on to reach the goal (I am of the same opinion that push release is the best) but also to learn that they can still play decent game with a bit different options if there is no possibility to reach the goal. I cannot accept your standpoint condemning other release types in view of this fact, not mentioning all the greats playing winning golf with elements of the two other types.

Cheers

[Dariusz J]

Feb 1, 2013 12:38:09 GMT -5 gmbtempe said:

Why was I labeled a handle dragger by many in their forum two-three years ago, led by Finney?

Here is my swing from that time.



I mean how much more should I flip after impact?

Why do you ask me about it ? Your action is far from handle-dragging as all releases close to slap-hinge can be.

Cheers

[gmbtempe]

Feb 1, 2013 12:41:59 GMT -5 @Dariusz J said:

Feb 1, 2013 12:38:09 GMT -5 gmbtempe said:

Why was I labeled a handle dragger by many in their forum two-three years ago, led by Finney?

Here is my swing from that time.



I mean how much more should I flip after impact?

Why do you ask me about it ? Your action is far from handle-dragging as all releases close to slap-hinge can be.

Cheers

THANK YOU...been saying the same thing for years, I think I actually do what they prescribe, I just think a drive hold release based on a pivot driven swing is the way to go.

You get a labled a handle dragger by the forums you visit.

[imperfectgolfer]

I have never previously examined the swing of Boo Weekley, and I would label him as using a DH-release action, and not a slap hinge release action.

Here is my reasoning.

Here are capture images from that swing video.



Image 1 is at impact, image 2 is at P7.2 (where he has an intact LAFW) and image 3 is at P7.5 (where his clubshaft has flipped passed his left arm).

Note that he has a very strong left hand grip in image 1. That means that his left humerus is internally rotated and his left forearm is fully pronated at address, and at impact. It is my experience that golfers, who use a very strong left hand grip, will not rotate their left arm/forearm counterclockwise very much in their followthrough and they will simply allow their left wrist to bend post-impact. However, when it bends defines whether they are using a slap hinge release action or a DH-release action. If it bends after P7.2, then that means that they are using a DH-release action through the impact zone. Note that BW still has an intact LAFW in image 2, which means that he is DHer through impact. If his intact LAFW broke down between P7 and P7.2, then I would label him a slap-hinger through impact.

Here is Jamie Sadlowski's followthrough.



JS also uses a very strong left hand grip, and his left wrist also bends post-impact. However, note that it only bends well after he bypasses the P7.2 position, and that means that he is a DHer through impact.

Jeff.

[Dariusz J]

Jeff,

Put a side-by-side comparison of Blake with this wet mop to Weekly and Sadlowsky -- you will show what is the difference between handle-dragging and push (or whatever you call it) release.

I cannot believe people could be blind for such a big period of time.

Cheers

[richie3jack]

Jared Willerson, Finney and Co. were calling Boo Weekley a 'handle dragger who got hot for a few years' when he didn't make the top-125 on the Money List in 2011.

They then tried to claim that Brandt Snedeker was a much superior ballstriker and how Boo may 'sound good on the range, but I'd rather have Snedeker's Trackman numbers.'

I pointed out that his ballstriking was superb and far superior to Snedeker's. Ranking 1st in my Driving Effectiveness ranking and 6th in Danger Zone play in 2011 and he is always on top of the Driving Effectiveness and Danger Zone play lists according to the metrics compiled from ShotLink data.

They then said 'stats lie' and I pointed out that Weekley:

Hits it much further than Snedeker
Generates about 5 mph more clubhead speed than Snedeker
Hit more fairways than Snedeker
Had a closer Average Distance to the Edge of the Fairway than Snedeker

They kinda dropped it and then Finney came back with some random post showing what Snedeker's ranking on the Money List was versus Weekley's...ignoring the fact that Money List ranking has little to do with pure ballstriking and that Snedeker ranked 1st in Putts Gained while Weekley ranked last (and has a terrible short game around the green).

Last I read, they said that they determine handle dragging by asking the player what they are trying to do. And if they are trying to handle drag, then they are a handle dragger.

Recently they left it as 'there are no handle draggers on Tour.' Completely ignoring the fact that they claimed Weekley was 'a handle dragger that got hot for a few years on Tour.'

That's where all the talk about Boo the Handle Dragger came from.





3JACK

[Dariusz J]

Why the hell people want to deal with handle-draggers especially when we know that there were no living examples on the tour for ages (even Furgol with his lead arm was not dragging a wet mop).
Opposite to it, we know very well that there were several slap-hingers and crossover release golfers amongst thevery best -- yet, some are afraid to admit it.
Don't live in a wasteland. Trust physics and anatomy and not jibberish that Kelley, Hardy, Jacobs, or another Ballard or Folley presented to us. If someone tells you that there's only one release warranting a good usage of the clubhead -- run, RUN QUICKLY.

Good nite.